Horford and Smoove

tbhawksfan · Post #1 » by **tbhawksfan** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:11 pm

What do we do long-term?

Smoove is looking good at PF. But can he fit at SF? Horford is competing on some nights at C, but he is a PF. If Smoove can move to the SF, what about Marvin.

It looks like it's time to clearly identify which guy is going to play where and which ones we invest in.

We need a C and either a starter or back up at PG. We have two very attractive players coming into RFA. We're packed at 2, 3, and 4.

It is probably the best time for a Hawks trade.

I haven't been able to find a C we could trade for. There are a few solutions at PG.

What should we do at the and who should we offer if a deal becomes available?

JoshB914 · Post #2 » by **JoshB914** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:16 pm

I think Horford will play C and log some minutes at PF. You do bring up some good points about our logjam at forward though. I hope BK is at least floating Marvin out there to see what might be available.

tontoz · Post #3 » by **tontoz** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:28 pm

To me it is fairly simple.

Diop would be at the top of my wish list this summer. he would give the Hawks much needed size and really strengthen our interior D.

Then the rotation at the 4/5 would be Diop/Horford/Smith. They would play almost all the minutes assuming they are healthy.

I would start Diop over Horford simply because Horford will have trouble (as he is now) getting shots playing with the starters. It will be easier for him to get shots if he comes off the bench. Plus he will be less likely to get into early foul trouble when he isn't the starting center.

Horford will get 30+ minutes anyway i just think he would be more productive off the bench and splitting his time fairly evenly between the 4 and 5.

Smith hasn't played the 3 hardly at all so far this season. I don't see any reason to play him at the 3 unless his jumper improves a lot. We have enough problems with perimeter shooting. Putting Smith at the 3 would make things worse.

killbuckner · Post #4 » by **killbuckner** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:29 pm

I think it comes down to the fact that the hawks have no reasonable chance to get a player that would be a significant upgrade at center from Horford. If you have a name in mind then lets hear it. But otherwise its just a lot easier to say that the team needs a true center than it is to actually acquire one.

conleyorbust · Post #5 » by **conleyorbust** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:44 pm

killbuckner wrote:I think it comes down to the fact that the hawks have no reasonable chance to get a player that would be a significant upgrade at center from Horford. If you have a name in mind then lets hear it. But otherwise its just a lot easier to say that the team needs a true center than it is to actually acquire one.

Basically where we are at. The way I look at it is, if you are gonna trade Smith for a center because you think Horford is better at PF, does it make the team better on the whole. As in, is the new center as good as Horford at that spot and is Horford as good as Smith at that spot. Or the other way around.

As of right now, there is absolutely no reason to think that Smith shouldn't be where he is for the forseeable future. He is posting the 28th best PER in the league and he has no where to go but up on offense, not to mention he is an absolutely devastating defender already. His best assets are his shot-blocking and ability to dominate in transition and both of those are nullified against quicker, perimeter oriented players. If he can cut it on D at PF, which he obviously can, than there is no reason to consider moving him. Horford is a bigger question mark, as of right now we know for a fact that he can rebound, he is a solid passer for a rookie big man who doesn't get the ball often enough, and he can run the floor. We think he could have a solid post game, and its possible that he could develop into a reliable midrange shooter, but for now we don't know. I think that until he shows us that he is better off at PF, we keep him at C where he has been fairly productive.

Its like kb says, every team in the A wants a 7 foot, 280 pound monster who can block shots and score in the post but there aren't too many of them that are actually good at basketball.

Skyhawk1 · Post #6 » by **Skyhawk1** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:56 pm

Horford is better than Smith at PF. He can defend and rebound as a rookie better than Smith as a 4th year man. Marvin is doing a good job at the 3. He's also the only guy besides JJ that can knock shots down. If we play Smith at SF, he'll brick even more than he already does. He's too inconsistent and turns the ball over at will whenever he's got to do more than the usual. I think the problem with Smith is, he's a home town kid that produces highlights and our management and some fans seem to blindly love him. He's going to demand MUCH more money than what he's worth. I'd trade him along with all those expiring contracts. I find it very possible that GS ( Biedrins ), Memphis ( Gasol ) could be interested.

Rip2137 · Post #7 » by **Rip2137** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:06 pm

Horford is better at the Center position than both Gasol and Biedrins. Gasol can't guard anyone and can't rebound with Centers and his best years was when they lined a Center up beside him and let him play the PF. Biedrins can defend Centers some, about the same as Horford. He also isn't as good a natrual rebounder as Horford and his offensive game isn't as good. Most of his points come from the fact that the team is a quick hitting, spread court offense where everyone is a good to very good passer and finds him around the basket alot.

Gasol would offensively be a upgrade over Horford at the Center, but the team would lose too much defensively to compete. Trading for Beidrens and you will have another guy that is probably a PF on most teams.

Personally, I feel that Horford IS a center and Smith IS a PF. And like I said before, the differences between a true center and a PF are pretty small.

tontoz · Post #8 » by **tontoz** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:10 pm

killbuckner wrote:I think it comes down to the fact that the hawks have no reasonable chance to get a player that would be a significant upgrade at center from Horford.

That isn't the issue. We need someone at center who is a significant upgrade over Zaza and Shelden.

conleyorbust · Post #9 » by **conleyorbust** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:12 pm

Skyhawk1 wrote:Horford is better than Smith at PF. He can defend and rebound as a rookie better than Smith as a 4th year man. Marvin is doing a good job at the 3. He's also the only guy besides JJ that can knock shots down. If we play Smith at SF, he'll brick even more than he already does. He's too inconsistent and turns the ball over at will whenever he's got to do more than the usual. I think the problem with Smith is, he's a home town kid that produces highlights and our management and some fans seem to blindly love him. He's going to demand MUCH more money than what he's worth. I'd trade him along with all those expiring contracts. I find it very possible that GS ( Biedrins ), Memphis ( Gasol ) could be interested.

What led you to believe this? Horford is a decent defender, which is great for a rookie. Whatever you want to believe about Smith, he is one of the most effective defensive forces in the league. He excels from the weakside, he has become very good at getting steals in transition to stop fast breaks, and he has become a fairly effective one on one defender which isn't always the case for a shot-blocker of his caliber.

On offense Smith has a noticably higher assist ration and a noticably lower turnover ratio. He shoots a similar TS% but scores significantly more. Outside of rebounding, what is Horford better at? I think there is a chance he could get better, but as of right now Smith is playing great and Horford is playing pretty good for a rookie.

I know you aren't a Smith fan at all, but until Joe gets his shot back, Josh is our best player. He is also our most marketable player and BKs only slam-dunk success as a drafter. There has already been a thread about trading him for Gasol, my thought is that it is a lateral move (or slight upgrade) for the present and a bad move for the future considering that Gasol is nowhere near as good as Smith on D and Smith is already an OK offensive player with an ever improving game on that side of the ball.

I'm as big of a Horford supporter as there is but what on earth could lead you to believe he is already a better defender?

Rip2137 · Post #10 » by **Rip2137** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:23 pm

I think Horford is being underrated as a defender(because he doesn't have guady stats, he is more of that Kurt Thomas type of defender), but no way he is a better defender than Smith right now. Smith has shown the ability to stay in front of both guard positions and hold his own on the block against front court players. He is in a elite class of defenders like Shawn Marion and Renaldo Balkman(only with about 200 times the offensive usefulness of Balkman)

JoshB914 · Post #11 » by **JoshB914** » Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:23 pm

Smoove is in the top 10 in blocks and steals. Using defense to decrease his value makes no sense.

Hood President · Post #12 » by **Hood President** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 12:45 am

Skyhawk1 wrote:Horford is better than Smith at PF. He can defend and rebound as a rookie better than Smith as a 4th year man. Marvin is doing a good job at the 3. He's also the only guy besides JJ that can knock shots down. If we play Smith at SF, he'll brick even more than he already does. He's too inconsistent and turns the ball over at will whenever he's got to do more than the usual. I think the problem with Smith is, he's a home town kid that produces highlights and our management and some fans seem to blindly love him. He's going to demand MUCH more money than what he's worth. I'd trade him along with all those expiring contracts. I find it very possible that GS ( Biedrins ), Memphis ( Gasol ) could be interested.

You sir is a dumby. JJ reached his peak last year and he is not going to get better and Horford just needs to improve his defense and stay out of foul trouble if he is going to play center. Gasol plays no defense and he is second feddle to rudy gay up in Memphis. Biedrins is really nothing special also. Josh is a guy that that can get you 22+ points a night if he plays consistantly. i would trade marvin, but if we can get gasol for ZaZa, Lue and Salim then lets go for it.

CAM · Post #13 » by **CAM** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:09 am

I think our frontline we have now, should be the goal for our frontline of the future.

As Horford matures, he will learn to stay out of foul trouble, hence becoming more affective. Diop would be the perfect backup to be aquired this offseason, but he would not start at C over Horford.

Smith I feel is most effective at the 4 and should stay there.

Marvin has become our most efficient scorer. Not our highest scorer, but I think the sky is the limit for him on the offensive end, and he is decent at man on man defending.

So why make changes to the starting frontcourt? We are young and have promise at each of our starting frontcourt positions. It's the backups we need to asses because they just aren't providing consistent effort and ability.

tontoz · Post #14 » by **tontoz** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:45 am

Diop would be the perfect backup to be aquired this offseason, but he would not start at C over Horford.

Why not?

So why make changes to the starting frontcourt?

To get better.

Horford is averaging only 8.8 ppg. A big reason for that is because it is hard for him to get shots playing with the starters, all of whom are looking to shoot.

killbuckner · Post #15 » by **killbuckner** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:48 am

CAM- I think that Childress is still the most efficient scorer. I am dying to see what he woudl do on a team with a true distributing PG. He can't create his own shot but he is a very efficient scorer.

conleyorbust · Post #16 » by **conleyorbust** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:55 am

killbuckner wrote:CAM- I think that Childress is still the most efficient scorer. I am dying to see what he woudl do on a team with a true distributing PG. He can't create his own shot but he is a very efficient scorer.

Are you saying that you would rather have Childress starting than Marv? Marv is also a very efficient scorer and does his damage in a way that can help with spacing and put more pressure on the opposing D, not to mention Marv is a better perimeter defender. If you are talking about his comments about the backups, I agree with you but I think CAM was primarily referring to our big man backups - Zaza and Shelden. I actually thought that having those two come off the bench would give us one of the deepest frontcourts in the game. I don't know what happened but they both got exponentially worse in the offseason.

CAM · Post #17 » by **CAM** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 2:01 am

tontoz wrote:Why not?

Because Diop is an offensive Liabilty and I don't see that improving. He provides us with what we need in a Definsive, true C, which compliments Horford well and lets us roate the two appropriately depending on matchups and game situation.

In starting Horford at C, we have a more rounded, athletic player who compliments the other starting frontcourt players well. He also has the upsode to provide the offense and defense that Diop will never be able to.

It is hard for Horford to get shots amongst our offense right now, but his offenseive game, and his teammates confidence in it, I can only see improving.

---------------------------

KB, Childress is in a sense our most 'effecient' scorer, and I love him for the way he does it, but I see a far greater scoring potential in Marvin, who can do more on his own. I can't imagine Childress ever averaging over 18ppg.

CAM · Post #18 » by **CAM** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 2:07 am

conleyorbust wrote:I think CAM was primarily referring to our big man backups - Zaza and Shelden. I actually thought that having those two come off the bench would give us one of the deepest frontcourts in the game. I don't know what happened but they both got exponentially worse in the offseason.

Bingo.

I too thought we were reasonably sorted provinding Horford could defend the 5. Which he can. I can't believe how bad Zaza has been this season, and how inconsistent Shelden has been.

I can't believe I have actually preferred seing Lo Wright in there a couple of times this season...... wow.

killbuckner · Post #19 » by **killbuckner** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 2:09 am

Well you want to say who has the most potential for volume scoring thats different from saying who is the most efficient scorer is. Childress has a 66.5 True Shooting Percentage. Thats absolutely a massive number for a Small Forward. (4th highest in the league) For comparison marvin is 58.7. Childress is quietly having a very productive season.

The question wasn't who the best starter at SF is or who has the potential to be the best scorer in the league. Just who the most efficient scorer is and I think thats Childress by a pretty significant margin. Not a slam on Marvin at all- Childress is just a pretty remarkable player in this area.

FCNATL85 · Post #20 » by **FCNATL85** » Tue Jan 8, 2008 2:10 am

Skyhawk1 wrote:Horford is better than Smith at PF. He can defend and rebound as a rookie better than Smith as a 4th year man. Marvin is doing a good job at the 3. He's also the only guy besides JJ that can knock shots down. If we play Smith at SF, he'll brick even more than he already does. He's too inconsistent and turns the ball over at will whenever he's got to do more than the usual. I think the problem with Smith is, he's a home town kid that produces highlights and our management and some fans seem to blindly love him. He's going to demand MUCH more money than what he's worth. I'd trade him along with all those expiring contracts. I find it very possible that GS ( Biedrins ), Memphis ( Gasol ) could be interested.

I am starting to think like that but we need more than Gasol...
A bold move would send Smith, Law and Zaza + 2nd to Charlotte for Felton, Okafor and 1st... Take the picks away and the deal stands.