Realistic Blockbuster??? ----> SAC - CLE - TOR

[inrapscity]

I don't think that TOR would give up Kapono+Parker for Artest, especially with his character.

[Bac2Basics]

Quality points people. Maybe not as realistic as I first thought. I'm just a raps fan who would love to see Artest here all BS aside. I think Mitchell could make it work and as long as were winning I'm sure Ron would be Ok.

I can see Kings fans being open to sending Artest to Toronto, but this isn't the deal to do it.

My guess would be that a SAC/TOR deal with have as a base

Ron Artest & Kenny Thomas (& Filler as needed)
for
Jose Calderon, Rasho (& Filler as needed)

Of course this would probably have to wait until TJ Ford came back.

[rpa]

Wow, you're right, Bibby is such a good pointguard that Sacramento fans have been shopping his ass all over the place. If he's such a good pointguard, why did he, Artest, Martin and Miller look like such a terrible team?

Did KG suck when the Wolves sucked? Does Wade suck now? Shall I go on? Do Bosh & Calderon suck because they're hovering at .500 in the worst conference in professional sports? Sometimes players don't mesh, there are injuries, there are coaching issues, etc. Trying to equate how good an individual is based solely on his teams performance is downright stupid.

[wajr]

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Who said anything about intelligence? Maybe you should go back and read the original post again; maybe more than just one more time. The simple fact is that on these boards Raptors fans are up there with Laker fans & Knick fans as having completely unrealistic interpretations of the value of their players and of others.

Therefore, you being a Raptors fan, you have little credibility for speaking on the value of your players or other players (at least as most other fans are concerned).

Aren't you doing the same thing by telling us that bibby is a top tier PG? Maybe 4 or 5 years ago buddy but definitly not now.

[rpa]

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Aren't you doing the same thing by telling us that bibby is a top tier PG? Maybe 4 or 5 years ago buddy but definitly not now.

Smills said top tier. I said he's still a pretty damn good PG. I think he's probably around 11th-15th in the league. But that's not saying much given how thin the PG position is these days.

[wajr]

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Did KG suck when the Wolves sucked? Does Wade suck now? Shall I go on? Do Bosh & Calderon suck because they're hovering at .500 in the worst conference in professional sports? Sometimes players don't mesh, there are injuries, there are coaching issues, etc. Trying to equate how good an individual is based solely on his teams performance is downright stupid.

That conference your talking about currently has the best 2 teams in the NBA record wise. Definitely not the worst conference in Pro Sports. How about the east in the NHL or the National League in MLB.

[Alfred]

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Who said anything about intelligence? Maybe you should go back and read the original post again; maybe more than just one more time. The simple fact is that on these boards Raptors fans are up there with Laker fans & Knick fans as having completely unrealistic interpretations of the value of their players and of others.

Wow, I didn't think I would have to explain this to you, but seeing as you don't understand, I guess I'll have to. Intelligence isn't just a narrow definition of IQ, or the ability to do well in schools, or whatever the hell you think it means. In fact, it's a broad measure of one's knowledge, often pertaining to specific areas and fields.

In this case, where we are talking about basketball, you are insinuating that Raptor fans are too stupid to understand how trades work, how much certain players are worth, what their contracts mean, etc. You are attempting to prove (and poorly at that) that we lack the intelligence to comment on the subject.

Unfortunately for you, you personally seem to lack the intelligence to be able to grasp this concept. That's too bad.

Therefore, you being a Raptors fan, you have little credibility for speaking on the value of your players or other players (at least as most other fans are concerned).

Lol. I love the "Therefore" that you use here, as if the "point" that you made earlier had somehow proved that an entire demographic of people are somehow unable to make qualified opinions on basketball. Seriously, I wish you were joking, because I'm going to have nightmares about people who legitimately believe that you can assume something about someone based on what team they like.

You point is TERRIBLE! Seriously, in all of my days reading the internet, I have never seen someone so seriously holding such a downright absurd belief as fact.

Again, where are you from? I would like to know, so that I can make a broad, sweeping generalization about you that I will pretend to be an unassailable fact.

at your whole argument. It's really pathetic.

[rpa]

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That conference your talking about currently has the best 2 teams in the NBA record wise. Definitely not the worst conference in Pro Sports. How about the east in the NHL or the National League in MLB.

The Patriots just went 16-0. That doesn't mean the AFC East is a bastion of football talent.

Also notice that Detroit is 8-5 against the West this year (Boston is 10-0 but hasn't played any of the top teams yet).

Needless to say the point stands: 1 team (or 2 for that matter) does not make a conference. The West is tough from the top almost all the way to the bottom. The East is "tough" through the first 3 teams. After that it's paper mache.



Edit: Would like to point out that my Kings (who are a miserable 12-20 right now and missing 3 starts) are 7-7 against the East at this point. But let's keep believing the East is actually good.

[wajr]

[quote="rpa"]-= original quote snipped =-



Smills said top tier. I said he's still a pretty damn good PG. I think he's probably around 11th-15th in the league. But that's not saying much given how thin the PG position is these days.[/quote]

In no particular order I would take all of the following before Mike Bibby. The names in bold are ones I would have to think about but most likely still take over Bibby.

1) Steve Nash
2) Jason Kidd
3) Tony Parker
4) Chris Paul
5) Deron WIlliams
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Gilbert Arenas
Baron Davis
9) Devin Harris
10) Jason Terry
11) Jose Calderon
12) TJ Ford
13) Mike Conley
14) Raymond Felton
15) Shaun Livingston
16) Andre MIller
17) Jameer Nelson
18) Stephon Marbury
19) Luke Ridinour
20) Rajon Rando
21) Jamaal Tinsley
22) Mo WIlliams
23) Lous WIlliams

The PG position maybe thin our your squad but throughout the NBA we have some amazing PG's.

[rpa]

Wow, I didn't think I would have to explain this to you, but seeing as you don't understand, I guess I'll have to. Intelligence isn't just a narrow definition of IQ, or the ability to do well in schools, or whatever the hell you think it means. In fact, it's a broad measure of one's knowledge, often pertaining to specific areas and fields.

In this case, where we are talking about basketball, you are insinuating that Raptor fans are too stupid to understand how trades work, how much certain players are worth, what their contracts mean, etc. You are attempting to prove (and poorly at that) that we lack the intelligence to comment on the subject.

Unfortunately for you, you personally seem to lack the intelligence to be able to grasp this concept. That's too bad.

Wow that was a waste of my time. The term I used ("credibility") more denotes the opinion on a player's qualitative worth to his team and to other teams. You bring up contracts as if I assume Raptors fans can't do simple math or multiplication.

Further, "credibility", in this case, pertains more to the subjectivity of ones views. For instance, even though Bush makes so many incredibly stupid decisions there are still people around him that are VERY smart. But when asked questions pertaining to (say) the Republican party most of them are going to answer SUBJECTIVELY. That doesn't mean that they're stupid; it only means that they're biased in terms of their interpretations of something that isn't necessarily absolute.

The qualitative value of players is NOT a necessary absolute.



But speaking of pathetic. I think it's pathetic you try to spout opinion but still don't have a grasp of the English language. Keep thinking that talking about credibility (or lack thereof) means you can't do simple math.

[Bac2Basics]

[quote="rjaw"][/quote]

If that's your list, you've just proven how little you know about basketball, because at least 1/3 if not more of those names are clearly lesser PG's than Mike Bibby.

[loserX]

Guys, please knock off the personal attacks. Perfectly easy to discuss basketball without them.

[rpa]

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Smills said top tier. I said he's still a pretty damn good PG. I think he's probably around 11th-15th in the league. But that's not saying much given how thin the PG position is these days.

In no particular order I would take all of the following before Mike Bibby. The names in bold are ones I would have to think about but most likely still take over Bibby.

What's amusing to me is the following:

there are a number of players on your list where fans of that team either would rather have Bibby than their PG or there are players on that list that are available (e.g. Andre Miller) that teams in need of a PG feel is the backup plan to Bibby.

Also: Ridnour is awful, Livingston's career may be over, and Marbury is GOD AWFUL.

For the remainder of his contract (this year and next) I'd take the following PGs over Bibby: Nash, Kidd, Parker, Paul, DWilliams, Billups, Arenas, Calderon, Harris, Terry, and MAYBE Mo Williams. Everyone else (to me) is either still developing (Rondo, Conley, Felton, Livingston) or just isn't as good (Marbury, Ridnour, Tinsley, Nelson), and the last 1 is pretty close (Miller)

Edit -- I think I forgot Baron Davis. Add him to the list

[wajr]

[quote="rpa"][/quote]

You may be right but lets look this over.

Boston might trade Rondo for Bibby but then again maybe not. Rondo is young and plays excellent D. Plus Boston is on a tear so why mess with something good. Add to the fact that Rondo alone doesn't even come close to Bibby's salary. No deal.

Got me on Marbury. Bad choice. X him from the list because New York would trade him for Bibby in a second and now that I think about it so would I.

Who else. Livingston. Okay. Clips make that deal. But if Livingston was healthy they laugh and hang up the phone.

Conley. Nope. Memphis is building for the future. Conley is young and has the potential to be a better guard than Bibby.

Luke Ridinour. Sure but I promise you Seattle doesn't touch Bibby either. Not with his deal and history of injuries.

Philly wouldn't trade Miller for Bibby. There rebuiliding as well and Bibby doesn't fit. Lous Williams looks to be a real keeper to so no deal there.

Mo Williams? More of a shooting guard but younger and definiltey more valuable than Bibby IMO.

Jameer Nelson. Orlando probobly does this deal because there not rebuilding.

Jamaal Tinsley. He's been playing great this year but I'm sure Indiana would take Bibby over him so there's another one for you.

My list contains 23 players. 4 of which their current teams would trade them for Bibby IMHO. Thats about 1/6 so my list ain't that bad

PS: I know allot more about basketbal then might think. I've been a fan for as long as I can remember and played competitively in and out of school albeit here in Canada. Cheers

[Alfred]

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Wow that was a waste of my time. The term I used ("credibility") more denotes the opinion on a player's qualitative worth to his team and to other teams. You bring up contracts as if I assume Raptors fans can't do simple math or multiplication.

Further, "credibility", in this case, pertains more to the subjectivity of ones views. For instance, even though Bush makes so many incredibly stupid decisions there are still people around him that are VERY smart. But when asked questions pertaining to (say) the Republican party most of them are going to answer SUBJECTIVELY. That doesn't mean that they're stupid; it only means that they're biased in terms of their interpretations of something that isn't necessarily absolute.

Only in this case, you're singling out Raptors fans as lacking this certain objectivity that everyone else has (apart from Knicks and Lakers fans apparently).

As for your definition of credibility in this case, does it not assume any qualities of intelligence? The ability to realistically grasp the worth of a player on your team's IS a type of intelligence, I don't really see how you can say otherwise. If I refused to trade my beat up junker of a car for a Ferrari out of loyalty to the car that I currently owned, I would obviously be lacking the ability to understand objective worth. That's a type of intelligence, and that's why your whole argument falls flat on it's face.

Your attempt to tie this to the political realm, where many matters are completely subjective, is a poor metaphor. The reason is because Basketball worth is often extremely cut and dry, can be boiled to to the basics of how much a contract is worth compared to the worth of the player on the court and the need of the trading teams. In a sense people can be right, or they can be wrong, and there isn't a lot of middle ground. In politics, this becomes much more muddled, where almost every viewpoint is subjective, because there are many supportable positions to take on almost every issue.

You are trying to equate an extremely subjective system (politics) with a relatively objective system (basketball). That's why your example fails: they simply do not match up well enough. You ARE trying to say that Raptors fans aren't smart enough to comment on these issues, except you are trying to hide behind a poorly constructed veil. Frankly, you aren't doing a very good job, it just seems like you're trying to cover up your original stance (I don't blame you, it was pretty unsupportable).

The qualitative value of players is NOT a necessary absolute.

While this may be true, there is a system of evaluation that can determine worth. PER, for example is a relatively reliable system of evaluating players, and there are many different qualitative analyses for dollar-to-production value in regards to players. There is definitely enough quantitative and qualitative evidence that knowing about player value is a type of intelligence.

What you are trying to say here is that Raptor fans lack the type of intelligence required to make good estimations on player value. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY. Just because you are attempting to obfuscate your original point doesn't mean that you are somehow overcoming this point, you are simply attempting to avoid it by muddying the water so to speak.

But speaking of pathetic. I think it's pathetic you try to spout opinion but still don't have a grasp of the English language. Keep thinking that talking about credibility (or lack thereof) means you can't do simple math.

Man, I can't believe that this entire thing is flying so far above your head! It's almost astounding how you can't make the leap that saying that people lack the ability to rationally comprehend the worth of players is saying that people lack a certain type of intelligence. For goodness sakes, you're telling me to read what you wrote, but you yourself aren't willing to make the logical next step to what you are saying!

Things imply other things. What you are saying may not seem like you are saying people lack intelligence, but that IS in fact what you are saying. It's the next logical step that you must neccissarily take if you are to actually believe what you are saying.

Now please, tell me where you are from, so that I can make a broad sweeping generalization about you based on your geography.

[Cruel_Ruin]

[quote="rjaw"][/quote]

Are we talking about trade value or player skill? Because in terms of basketball talent, Bibby is better right now than all of the players you listed

[loserX]

Are we talking about trade value or player skill? Because in terms of basketball talent, Bibby is better right now than all of the players you listed

And quite a bit more expensive than all of them except Marbury. There are a lot of issues being conflated in this thread.

Talent, current performance, trade value. Those are 3 separate hierarchies, and Bibby (like most players) has a different standing on each.

[Bac2Basics]

[quote="rpa"][/quote]

This is a much more accurate list, well done RPA

[wajr]

Im taking all aspects into consideration. Is Bibby better than Conley, Rondo and Miller right now? The answer may be yes but his contract and injuries make him less valuable as a trade asset. Bibby seems to be past his prime and that's a shame because he truly was a great PG.

[rpa]

1 thing I'd like to preface this with is that you can't just say "Team X wouldn't trade player Y for Bibby" because that takes in so many other things other than a player's ability (which is what we're ranking them by, right?).

Boston might trade Rondo for Bibby but then again maybe not. Rondo is young and plays excellent D. Plus Boston is on a tear so why mess with something good. Add to the fact that Rondo alone doesn't even come close to Bibby's salary. No deal.

We were rating a player's ability, not their "value". Salary comes into play when determining value; it doesn't when determining ability. Further, Boston's a team setup to win in the next couple years--not 5 years down the road when Rondo matures.

Who else. Livingston. Okay. Clips make that deal. But if Livingston was healthy they laugh and hang up the phone.

It depends. Even before his injury many were starting to think of Livingston as a bust. Everyone saw the "potential" he had but over so many years he hadn't realized any of it. And the fact isn't "if he was healthy" because he's not and may never be.

Conley. Nope. Memphis is building for the future. Conley is young and has the potential to be a better guard than Bibby.

If he has the POTENTIAL to be a better guard than Bibby then Bibby must be better NOW, which is what we're talking about.

Luke Ridinour. Sure but I promise you Seattle doesn't touch Bibby either. Not with his deal and history of injuries.

Seattle is rebuilding. If they had a choice between Bibby or Ridnour they'd first try to choose neither one and then they'd choose Bibby. Why? Because his contract runs 1 less year than Ridnours. But it isn't about that anyways. Bibby's a FAR better PG now than Ridnour.

Philly wouldn't trade Miller for Bibby. There rebuiliding as well and Bibby doesn't fit. Lous Williams looks to be a real keeper to so no deal there.

But the Kings wouldn't trade Bibby for Miller either which is why I said you can't go by teams wanting to trade their PG for him. The point about Miller was that teams like Cleveland and Miami (particularly based on their fans) look at Miller as a BACKUP plan to Bibby. Which means, it would seem, that Bibby is the BETTER player