Top 5 players who are playing the best in 2007/2008?

[B-Scott]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't think there is any secret that you tend to underrate what Kobe does on the court because you don't like him as a player.

Kobe has posted a better stat line than either of Roy or Nash as well (as judged by PER), and has led his team to almost as good a record as the Phoenix Suns (2.0 games behind) with a worse supporting cast than Nash. Both guys have been hugely impressive, don't get me wrong (I have them both in the top 10 for MVP, and Nash is top 5), but neither have outplayed Kobe this season. Kobe is playing DPOY caliber defense too which you will never give him credit for, because it doesn't show up in a box score and thus you can deny it. Neither of the guys you mentioned have played even close to that well defensively. I'm not surprised that you rank both of them ahead though. I wouldn't be surprised if you had guys like Paul Pierce, Caron Butler or Lamar Odom over him either.

For comical relief, where do you rank Kobe this season?

Nash is averaging 17 points, 12 assist and shooting 51% from the Field. To me that's more impressive then what Kobe has done.

Brandon Roy - Just like Iverson,you can make a argument that Kobe should be over these 2. The thing about Roy is he is leading a team that was not even expected to win 35 games to a potential 50 win season. Thats very impressive.

If anything you can maybe say Kobe could be 6th.

Both Nash and Iverson average more assist and shoot a higher FG percentage. To me its seems like Kobe's shooting percentage is dropping.

[nate33]

I can't believe all the people that rank Iverson in their top 5, or even their top 10 for that matter.

The following players are unquestionably playing better than Iverson this season:
Kevin Garnett
Chris Paul
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
Steve Nash
Chauncey Billups
Dirk Nowitzki

All are putting up better numbers. All play better defense. And all are leading their teams to better records.

You can also make the case that the following players are playing better than Iverson:
Carlos Boozer
Amare Stoudemire
Baron Davis
Deron Williams
Caron Butler
Chris Bosh
Paul Pierce
Yao Ming

All these guys put up comparable or better numbers to Iverson(except Pierce). They all play better defense (except Stoudemire and perhaps Boozer). And all are leading their teams to winning records. Iverson falls somewhere in this list. So he's the 10th to 17th best player in the NBA right now.

[GJense4181]

^How can a first-ballot hall of famer produce near career-best numbers and not be a top 5-10 player?
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/allen_iverson/
I'll repeat: he's shooting more efficiently from the floor than ever before (47%) and having a better season from behind the arc than usual (34%), is a good free throw shooter at 83%, is still a terror in the passing lanes at 2.3 spg (4th in the league), and is averaging fewer turnovers than normal. and he's second in the league in scoring, at 27 ppg. and 12th in the league in assists, at 6.8apg.
The only aspect he's performing worse than expected at is rebounding. But, he's an older, short PG playing amongst TREES. I'm sure if he were to be on another team his rpb would be 3.5 or better.
Also, his team is tied for first in their division, winning 62% of their games, on pace for 50-51. That's pretty much the threshold for MVP consideration, is it not?

This is Allen freakin' Iverson having an excellent year by Allen Iverson standards. =top 10.

[Derekman]

**** stat lines and averages. Watch a game. Iverson, Nash and Roy are light years more important to their teams success than Kobe. Iverson is carrying a group of underachievers who play no defense. Nash is carrying a bunch of guys who have just recently found themselves this season and Roy is carrying a bunch of guys who, besides Aldridge, belong on most NBA benches.

The Lakers always do this. They always win 7 or 8 games in a row surprise everybody then prove all the doubters correct by going on a losing streak and finishing the season AT BEST 10 games above .500. They are not an elite team they are just overachieving right now. No reason to get excited at this point.

lol, watch a game? Iverson has more talent on his team, has had a much easier schedule and his team is still doing worse than Kobe's. If you replaced Iveron with Kobe, I would guarantee denver would become a contender.

[GJense4181]

^^By the way, I lawl at the concept of Steve Nash playing better defense than Allen Iverson.

[ambiglight]

Got to agree with you.

AI is having a phenomenal year. I'm kind of surprised that so many players have stepped up that from 1 through 10 you can make an argument that they deserve to be MVP.

I think we've all seen what Kobe is capable of, and its obvious that he isn't playing at the same level as he's done in the past. Maybe he is adjusting his game....but be that as it may it doesnt change the fact that he is still under-performing by his standards. And the success of the lakers has less to do with his individual play and more to do with other players stepping up their own games. They have done this in spite of Kobe basically throwing them under the bus in the media. The lakers should be glad they didnt get rid of bynum like Kobe wanted...So i think its kind of laughable that a player can underperform and bash his team yet still be considered the "best player" despite the fact its the better play of OTHERS on his team that really has made the difference in the teams success.

AI and Denver on the other hand are enjoying their best start in ages as a result of AI and his phenomenal improvement in play, especially considering the fact that he was already a great player to begin with. As for defense. Kobe is an above average on the ball defender, and deserves that nod above AI without any additional caveats. But just as we say that AI is much better assist guy and certainly offers more as a combo guard filling roles at both positions in the backcourt. When we consider the fact that he's scoring more, shooting better, getting more steals, shoots less, draws more fouls, gets more assists, has more free throw attempts and points, gives you more minutes and is generally more essential to his team its kind of hard to simply say kobe rebounds more or kobe is a "better" defender and conclude those two things mean kobe is playing the best of the two this season. Its a long season, AI may drop-off by the end of the season, but over the course of the season AI has quite simply being playing better than the vast majority of the league including kobe. CP is about the only player that has been heads and shoulders above everybody else so just giving the nod to Kobe off of legend is kind of silly.

[Derekman]

^ if stats were everything KG wouldve been hands down the best player for the past decade, but thier is also this thing called "winning". Yes, denver's record is good, but the Lakers have a better record with a much harder schedule (8th in the league to 28th i believe) with Kobe being the clear cut leader. It's funny you say that the Lakers are winning in spite of Kobe's demands this summer, but i think he unintentionally lit a fire under the club, especially Bynum. You were probably on of the one's saying last year Kobe's stats don't reflect to well on his team, but now that his team is doing good, it's Kobe's stats aren't as good as other players. lol, you can't have both sides, pick one.

[Jules Winnfield]

This thread is full of the silliest arguments I have ever seen:

On the one hand, KG infuses the Celtics with a defensive mentality and winning mentality. On the other hand, Kobe's stats are down, so it must be the other players stepping up that is the reason for the Lakers success.

Look, KG may or may not be the best defender in the league. I don't care one way or the other. What is undisputed is that the Lakers are a mediocre defensive team without Kobe Bryant. If you believe that the Celtics success is mainly because of KG's defense, then you should also use the same reasoning and credit Kobe. In fact, the Lakers have never had a problem scoring. Not this year, not last year or the year before. Their deficiency was defense. Kobe Bryant is arguably the best defender in the league this year and without his defensive presence the Lakers would be losing more games. Furthermore, it is KG who has had the influx of new talent. Ambiglight, how do you respond to the fact that KG went from one of the worst teams in the league to one of the best after he got new superstar teammates? If Kobe is benefitting from the play of others as the main reason for their success, isn't that EVEN more true for KG?

Kobe has not underperformed, and that fact that anyone would suggest such a thing is simply ridiculous. Kobe has shot a below par percentage, but he has been more of a playmaker and his shot attempts are down. His PER 48 minute stats are eerily similar to Lebron James; the main difference between Kobe and LBJ? Kobe plays five less minutes per game. Are we to punish Kobe for helping his team end the game before the 4th quarter? Then look at Kobe's +/- and then look at his Roland Rating. It is pretty clear he is the most important player and best player on the Lakers - a team 10 games above .500 in the west while playing the 8th toughest schedule to this point.

In fairness to AI, he has been spectacular, but AI's increased production can almost certainly be attributed to the increase minutes that he plays over Kobe. In fact, PER 48 verifies this. Also, Kobe has a higher PER than AI. How do you respond to these two critiques? Kobe also has a higher NET production value and Roland rating to AI.

[dingclancy]

**** stat lines and averages. Watch a game. Iverson, Nash and Roy are light years more important to their teams success than Kobe. Iverson is carrying a group of underachievers who play no defense. Nash is carrying a bunch of guys who have just recently found themselves this season and Roy is carrying a bunch of guys who, besides Aldridge, belong on most NBA benches.

The Lakers always do this. They always win 7 or 8 games in a row surprise everybody then prove all the doubters correct by going on a losing streak and finishing the season AT BEST 10 games above .500. They are not an elite team they are just overachieving right now. No reason to get excited at this point.

You'll come around.

[Bgil]

According to Hollinger stats:

Lakers have the third hardest schedule so far and the Suns have the easiest schedule so far.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger ... order=true

They're separated by 2 games at this point.

No Laker is in the top 25 in assists yet the Lakers are third in assists per game:
http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_ ... 1.html#top

Kobe is shooting his typical average (~44-45%) yet every other Laker is damn near a career high and the Lakers are 3rd in shooting percentage.

They have no rebounders in the top 10 and only one in the top 15 (Bynum at 14) yet they are the third best rebounding team in the league and fifth best in differencial.

Other than Kobe, not one other player on the Lakers has ever had a single DPOY vote or ALL-D team selection yet the Lakers are fourth in opp fg% and opp 3pt%. Behind Boston, Detroit, and Houston.

Kobe plays alongside zero other all-stars. No Marion, Amare, Carmelo, DPOY Camby, no Ginobili off the bench, no Yao.

Kobe made Smush Parker look 10x better than he is and now he's making Fisher look like he might actually be worth that contract he got from Golden State.

Kobe make the players around him better moreso than any other player in the league. Kobe does this EVERY YEAR and the only thing to stop him are the team injuries (and coach leaving mid-season 2004).

Kobe should get some recognition for that.

[TonyMontana]

**** stat lines and averages. Watch a game. Iverson, Nash and Roy are light years more important to their teams success than Kobe. Iverson is carrying a group of underachievers who play no defense. Nash is carrying a bunch of guys who have just recently found themselves this season and Roy is carrying a bunch of guys who, besides Aldridge, belong on most NBA benches.

The Lakers always do this. They always win 7 or 8 games in a row surprise everybody then prove all the doubters correct by going on a losing streak and finishing the season AT BEST 10 games above .500. They are not an elite team they are just overachieving right now. No reason to get excited at this point.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLL , Maybe YOU should watch a game before you post this nonsense , cause you dont have a clue what your talking about .

Iversons running with Camby , Carter , Melo , Kmart , etc .
Nash , Amare S. , Hill , Diaw , Marion , Barbosa etc .

Both teams have easier schedules than the Lakers .
Kobe is and has been playing with a growin injury for a while now.
Lakers have been beating most of the opponents by double digits including the SUNS and the Nuggetes TWICE ........ and post this nonsense and then you tell us to watch a game .



And then you insult us by calling us underachievers .

Also to B-Scott , why are you a Laker fan ?
I mean all you do is complain about the way KOBE plays, his shot selection his leadership , or how the team is ran .
You dont have the respect of the Laker board since this is the only thing you like to do is Bash KOBE and the Lakers , and then you come on our board posting a L.O appreciation thread after Lamar played one decent game.

Why dont you post this on our board ?
Oh wait you have before and basically everyone disagreed with you , so you come on here and start this nonsense with the other KOBE bashing threads your good at .

[CB4MiamiHeat]

-= original quote snipped =-



yes, lets be real. Kobe shot has been off as of late.but he started off the season @47%( thats Nov. up tp mid-Dec ) and got injured. He is not losing minutes becuse his shot has been off it has more to do with the team blowing teams out. but no surprise the Kobe measuring stick is in full effect.

First of all, Kobe was my MVP in 06 .. so there is no double standard here..i am amazed at what he has done the past 2 years and its obvious to see he has not played as well this season. His shot is not the same as last year and it has nothing to do with minutes played, the FG% and 3pt%proves that.

He has not been a great playmaker, i watch the games, hes been decent as a playmaker. Hes had some nice setups and his precense alone gets people open shots.. but his 4.9 assists 3.3 assists ratio is nothing amazing. Hes barely in the top 30 in assists and his in the top 10 in turnovers. Iverson is more responsible for setting up his teammates more so than Kobe. Hes essentially the PG and SG of the team.

Its not crazy to have Iverson ahead of him, Kobe has been better defensively and Iverson has been better offensively. Its as close as it gets.

I think its wrong to give kobe all the credit for his team playing so well, just as it was wrong to give Kobe the blame for being sorrounded by scrubs the past 2 seasons.

[LLcoleJ]

-= original quote snipped =-



First of all, Kobe was my MVP in 06 .. so there is no double standard here..i am amazed at what he has done the past 2 years and its obvious to see he has not played as well this season. His shot is not the same as last year and it has nothing to do with minutes played, the FG% and 3pt%proves that.

First off, He actually started off the season strong shooting close to 47% in Nov. His shot has been off as of late. His shot starting going down hill after his groin injury.

Now Iverson does have a better FG% but he does not have a better 3pt%

He has not been a great playmaker, i watch the games, hes been decent as a playmaker. Hes had some nice setups and his precense alone gets people open shots.. but his 4.9 assists 3.3 assists ratio is nothing amazing. Hes barely in the top 30 in assists and his in the top 10 in turnovers. Iverson is more responsible for setting up his teammates more so than Kobe. Hes essentially the PG and SG of the team.

Well the triangle is a different animal but to say he is a 'decent' playmaker is false. The reason why guys like Bynum and Fisher and co are having such career years is because of Kobe's playmaking skills. I am not sure what games you have watched.

Its not crazy to have Iverson ahead of him, Kobe has been better defensively and Iverson has been better offensively. Its as close as it gets.

never said it was crazy. Kobe is CLEARLY better defensivly and Iverson has been a little better offensivily.

I think its wrong to give kobe all the credit for his team playing so well, just as it was wrong to give Kobe the blame for being sorrounded by scrubs the past 2 seasons.

Of course you do.




---------------------------


by the numbers.


Scoring = Same
rebounding = Kobe
Assist= AI
Steals = same
FG% = AI
FT% = Kobe
3pt% = Kobe

Defense = Kobe

Better supporting cast = AI

Harder schedule = Lakers

better record = Lakers

All of this on 5 minutes less per game played by Kobe, due to the Lakers getting big leads and Kobe resting.


So its not crazy to give AI credit for his season. I just dont see how he is cleary having a better year than Kobe.

[Frosty]

Kobe is shooting his typical average (~44-45%)

He's been shooting around .417 since the first of december, yet the team went something like 12-4.

Same period of time Iverson's fg% is .492 over 30ppg and 6.5apg

There's very good case for ranking Iverson ahead of Kobe, right now.

[ChocolateThundr]

-= original quote snipped =-


He's been shooting around .417 since the first of december, yet the team went something like 12-4.

Same period of time Iverson's fg% is .492 over 30ppg and 6.5apg

There's very good case for ranking Iverson ahead of Kobe, right now.

Just to show that Kobe doesnt have to score to help his team win

[ambiglight]

^ if stats were everything KG wouldve been hands down the best player for the past decade, but thier is also this thing called "winning". Yes, denver's record is good, but the Lakers have a better record with a much harder schedule (8th in the league to 28th i believe) with Kobe being the clear cut leader. It's funny you say that the Lakers are winning in spite of Kobe's demands this summer, but i think he unintentionally lit a fire under the club, especially Bynum. You were probably on of the one's saying last year Kobe's stats don't reflect to well on his team, but now that his team is doing good, it's Kobe's stats aren't as good as other players. lol, you can't have both sides, pick one.

Don't make me argue a position I never held.

Stats are not everything. Stats are merely indicators of which "construct" we are interested in.

Stats can either support what we qualitatively conclude through our observations are they can conflict with those conclusions. When they conflict with what we "see", we should at least explore WHY that might be the case.

In this situation you would have us believe that we ALL should have observed this conflict and if not our eyes are deceiving us. Than you support this by stating the lakers have a better record.

This is not a rational argument.

1). Better team records don't indicate one player is better than another, a better team record indicates the team is better. So far the lakers have indicated that they are better team given their combination of personnel and coaching.

2)We all observe whatever it is we observe and there is obviously any range of conclusions that can be drawn given our respective vantage points. Some have only watched a couple games of one team, while watching many games of another. Some only pay attention when their player has the ball.

With league pass, as it pertains to AI and kobe I follow the lakers (my friend is a huge fan) and the nuggets. I've seen about half the lakers games and seen all but two of the nuggets games. In the games I've seen AI has been the superior and more impactful player. Even the game that they credit Kobe for winning, that win was more about the laker bench keeping them in the game while kobe sat on the bench in foul trouble trying to D up AI and denver's coach switching the game plan and trying to use jr and melo to win the game in the fourth.

So as it stands just watching the games and as indicated by the stats in general AI has been the better player.

[Alex_De_Large]

Chris Paul-Baron Davis (healthy!!!!!!)-Lebron James-Kevin Garnett and D12.

[ambiglight]

This thread is full of the silliest arguments I have ever seen:

On the one hand, KG infuses the Celtics with a defensive mentality and winning mentality. On the other hand, Kobe's stats are down, so it must be the other players stepping up that is the reason for the Lakers success.

Look, KG may or may not be the best defender in the league. I don't care one way or the other. What is undisputed is that the Lakers are a mediocre defensive team without Kobe Bryant. If you believe that the Celtics success is mainly because of KG's defense, then you should also use the same reasoning and credit Kobe. In fact, the Lakers have never had a problem scoring. Not this year, not last year or the year before. Their deficiency was defense. Kobe Bryant is arguably the best defender in the league this year and without his defensive presence the Lakers would be losing more games. Furthermore, it is KG who has had the influx of new talent. Ambiglight, how do you respond to the fact that KG went from one of the worst teams in the league to one of the best after he got new superstar teammates? If Kobe is benefitting from the play of others as the main reason for their success, isn't that EVEN more true for KG?

Kobe has not underperformed, and that fact that anyone would suggest such a thing is simply ridiculous. Kobe has shot a below par percentage, but he has been more of a playmaker and his shot attempts are down. His PER 48 minute stats are eerily similar to Lebron James; the main difference between Kobe and LBJ? Kobe plays five less minutes per game. Are we to punish Kobe for helping his team end the game before the 4th quarter? Then look at Kobe's +/- and then look at his Roland Rating. It is pretty clear he is the most important player and best player on the Lakers - a team 10 games above .500 in the west while playing the 8th toughest schedule to this point.

In fairness to AI, he has been spectacular, but AI's increased production can almost certainly be attributed to the increase minutes that he plays over Kobe. In fact, PER 48 verifies this. Also, Kobe has a higher PER than AI. How do you respond to these two critiques? Kobe also has a higher NET production value and Roland rating to AI.

AI has always played more minutes than Kobe. So his "increased production" can't be because of more minutes cause he has always played those types of minutes. That's a credit to AI's endurance and his ability to fill roster space at two positions as a combo guard, allowing his team to have a thin backcourt, yet still maintain a level of dominance at those two positions.

As for being more of a playmaker. AI facilitates the offense way more than Kobe does, not to mention Kobe still shoots MORE than AI and hands out fewer assists. Perhaps kobe's role is diminished with better play by his teammates, that still doesnt change the fact that in his diminished role he is not playing better than the best players in the league. AI went from 31 and 7.5 in philly to 24 and 7.3 in denver last year, playing fewer minutes and in a diminished role as a playmaker. Nobody allowed that to be a crutch in their assessment of his play. People just recognized that he wasnt as good a player in that diminished role. Kobe is faced with the same issue and Im sure he will adjust just like AI did. Besides the difference between levels of play in the top ten players in the league are not that vast that people should be this worked up that Kobe isnt in the top five anymore. Pretty much only CP is clearly better than everybody else. 2 through 10 an argument can be made for each of these players....

[EHL]

Laker fans just shouldn't post in B-Scott threads at all save for a laughing emoticon. Just let his threads drop to the bottom, no one intelligent takes them seriously.

[Bgil]

-= original quote snipped =-


He's been shooting around .417 since the first of december, yet the team went something like 12-4.

Same period of time Iverson's fg% is .492 over 30ppg and 6.5apg

There's very good case for ranking Iverson ahead of Kobe, right now.

When Iverson won MVP he shot .420 and yet his team went 56-26.

Like I always say, just because your stats are better doesn't make it better for your team. Just like Iverson in 2001, Kobe continuously shooting the ball makes the defense have to respect his presence on the court.
If you watch games you'll see that those long stretches of time when Kobe would be looking to set up teammates and not looking for his shot or vise-versa are completely gone. That makes the team more effective and harder to defend.

The games against PHX typified this... AI had 32 on 50% shooting yet they got blown out and he was a -21. The Lakers first game against the Suns Kobe went 6-15 and was a +27 in a blowout win without LO. The second game saw Kobe go 12-20 for 38 points but he was only a +9 in a close win.

AI and Carmelo shoot better percentages than Kobe yet the Lakers as a team shoot better than the Nuggets. AI averages more assists than Kobe yet the Lakers average more assists than the Nuggets.

Kobe's playing much better unselfish ball this year, his stats are suffering for it compared to previous seasons, but his team is doing better.

Kobe over AI anyday.