Knicks @ Bulls Postgame Thread: Its a very sad day indeed..

[MGB8]

Tyrus should play so that he makes fewer such mistakes, but I disagree that his play wasn't impacted by being played out of position.

I do think that this Bulls team is much more the "real" Bulls team than the slightly higher energy team we've seen the last week or so. Riding the same old flawed strategy is going to get the same results. Eddy Curry owning Ben Wallace. Gordon not playing point so not distributing and having too much pressure to score. Kirk not moving the ball enough when he's the primary ball handler (KEEP HIM OFF BALL!)

The Bulls need to focus on development, matchups, and balance. For example, Curry excells against smaller defenders, but struggles against larger defenders who can keep him from backing in too much. So we should have seen a lot of Gray. We didn't.

Griffin and Thabo can play the 3, but they weren't given a shot (nor was VK). Joe Smith, while solid, should be conserved so that he doesn't break down, and used next to Gray, Noah, and next to TT as a C (against smaller matchups).

If the Bulls can move Wallace for non-longer contracts and something usefull (ie. a pick), they should.

[Angry Jimmy]

Ok, here it is, 3 simple trades to get us back to contender status.

First- We trade VK and Griffin to New Orleans for Chris Paul.

Trade ID #4396586

Why it works for us- It gives the Bulls a true pass first point guard, a playmaker who can turn even the most offensively challenged centers into Olympians.

Why it works for them- Being a struggling franchise in a small market they may not have the money to pay Paul the big bucks he'll deserve when his rookie contract expires. By getting Griffin they add a savvy veteran who can help mentor the rest of the young Hornets, and an expiring deal in Khryappa.

Second- We trade Ben Wallace to Orlando for Dwight Howard

Trade ID #4396607

Why it works for us- It gives the Bulls a dominant inside presence that we so desperately need.

Why it works for them- Howard takes away shots from other players by always dunking it inside. By picking up a guy like Wallace it will free up shot opportunities for Rashard Lewis, their big money free agent acquisition, to take more 3's It also gives them a guy with NBA Championship experience, something they will need if they want to contend with Boston and Detroit in the East.

Third- We trade Joe Smith, Andres Nocioni, and Chris Duhon to Atlanta for Joe Johnson

Trade ID #4396655

Why it works for us- It gives the Bulls a good scoring SG with legit size.

Why it works for them- Who wouldn't want a beast like Joe Smith on their team


All those trades work in the trade checker.



It leaves us with a lineup of this

C- Dwight Howard
PF- Tyrus Thomas
SF- Luol Deng
SG- Joe Johnson
PG- Chris Paul

Bench

Aaron "Big Sexy" Gray
Joakim Noah
Thabo Sefolosha
Ben Gordon
Kirk Hinrich
Demetris Nichols
JamesOn Curry

Can you say dynasty.

Make it happen Pax.

[bre9]

Tyrus was awful in this game he shouldn't even been in the game in the 4th qtr. Tyrus needs some serious developments with his game. The ONLY thingS he can do is dunk when open and block every now and then. I rather have Aldridge on the team.

[bullzman23]

Tyrus was bad, but so what. You learn from your mistakes. We didn't have any better options out there. I'd rather lose with Thomas on the floor than lose with Griffin. There weren't really any better options, besides *maybe* Sefolosha.

[girlygirl]

-= original quote snipped =-



Scorers are forced into taking bad shots. They create, and it's not always going to be successfull. Still Gordon has shot 63 for his last 119 shots, so I don't think you're critique is quite fair.

If Hinrich, Duhon, Noce, Wallace, Thomas, Noah, Griffin, Sefolosha, etc. were my supporting cast, I'd force a ton of bad shots too. Still, if he's shooting over 50% I don't think they're really bad shots.

Ben has been very good since Boylan took over. But tonight he reverted back to forcing too many shots -- in the first few games coming off the bench I hadn't seen him force a lot of shots in any one game. And if he hits them, then -- yes -- they are "less bad" (I call those the nonononoYES! type of shots). But they still aren't shots you want him to take on a regular basis. He is a pretty good off balance shooter -- that is, he hits a decent % of shots when he is falling backwards or off to one side.

I understand he feels pressure to take and make shots, even if they aren't necessarily high % shots. I would just like to see him find a way to get higher percentage shots -- whether that means him coming off more screens, or driving more to the basket or running pick and rolls with Joe Smith (NOT Wallace!) or whatever.

Getting to the point where he takes more high % shots doesn't fall all on BG, however -- the whole team needs to improve its offensive efficiency in order to help get him these better looks at the basket.

[SensiBull]

Let's here it for the "net negatives".

"Net negatives" represent!

[kobebull]

Tyrus was awful in this game he shouldn't even been in the game in the 4th qtr. Tyrus needs some serious developments with his game. The ONLY thingS he can do is dunk when open and block every now and then. I rather have Aldridge on the team.

Agreed. Pax gambled and lost. Big time. Such a stupid gamble too. Maybe Pax relied too much on Skiles' stare test at that Gibson's dinner. Good job, Pax!

[girlygirl]

Ok, here it is, 3 simple trades to get us back to contender status.

First- We trade VK and Griffin to New Orleans for Chris Paul.

Trade ID #4396586

Why it works for us- It gives the Bulls a true pass first point guard, a playmaker who can turn even the most offensively challenged centers into Olympians.

Why it works for them- Being a struggling franchise in a small market they may not have the money to pay Paul the big bucks he'll deserve when his rookie contract expires. By getting Griffin they add a savvy veteran who can help mentor the rest of the young Hornets, and an expiring deal in Khryappa.

Second- We trade Ben Wallace to Orlando for Dwight Howard

Trade ID #4396607

Why it works for us- It gives the Bulls a dominant inside presence that we so desperately need.

Why it works for them- Howard takes away shots from other players by always dunking it inside. By picking up a guy like Wallace it will free up shot opportunities for Rashard Lewis, their big money free agent acquisition, to take more 3's It also gives them a guy with NBA Championship experience, something they will need if they want to contend with Boston and Detroit in the East.

Third- We trade Joe Smith, Andres Nocioni, and Chris Duhon to Atlanta for Joe Johnson

Trade ID #4396655

Why it works for us- It gives the Bulls a good scoring SG with legit size.

Why it works for them- Who wouldn't want a beast like Joe Smith on their team


All those trades work in the trade checker.



It leaves us with a lineup of this

C- Dwight Howard
PF- Tyrus Thomas
SF- Luol Deng
SG- Joe Johnson
PG- Chris Paul

Bench

Aaron "Big Sexy" Gray
Joakim Noah
Thabo Sefolosha
Ben Gordon
Kirk Hinrich
Demetris Nichols
JamesOn Curry

Can you say dynasty.

Make it happen Pax.

LOL!!! This is the funniest post of the year!!!! I know you can't be serious. But on the faint chance that you are, can I get some of whatever it is you're smoking?

[LIbullsfan]

Pax can't keep doing New Orleans favors, we have to get back atleast a pick

[pduh01]

Ok can someone answer me or tell me this, I didn't get to see the game but I saw a bit of it on espn 2 and I saw Tyrus Thomas was matching up against Nate Robinson. WTF? Is he match up with Nate Robinson or is it just a switch on the defense for help and staying with him. I saw times that Tyrus was guarding Nate when Nate use the ball then when tyrus was posting up Nate on the offensive end. Then when times that Nate beat Tyrus when he drive the ball to the hoop.

Did Boylan assign Tyrus to guard Nate or was it just a switch on the defensive end? If it's a switch I understand but if it isn't I don't understand that strategy.

Someone explain to me please.

[bullzman23]

GG, I missed most of the 4th quarter because my LP feed died, but he still finished the game shooting 8-16. That's not an insane amount of shots (especially with Deng and Noce absent), and he hit half of them. We only scored twelve points in the fourth. I'm sure he felt like he had to force some jumpers to pick up the slack. I think any go to guy would do that.

My point is, when you're the leading scorer for a team you're going to force more bad shots simply because you shoot more. I don't think Gordon forces too many things that are out of his range or skill level. It's kind of like the discussion we had about turnovers earlier. Kidd is going to have more turnovers than Anthony Johnson, but that doesn't mean that AJ protects the ball better.

Hinrich, this year has become our fifth option on the food chain. He's behind Gordon, Deng, Smith, and Noce (at least in my opinion). For that reason, he should never be attempting jumpers on fast breaks. I counted two of those attempts tonight. For that reason I think his IQ and number of bad shots are alarming. It's ok for your top option to take bad shots (still I think Gordon is forced to do this because of his struggling cast),but it's unacceptable for a fourth or fifth option to do this.

[Sonny_D1]

Nice to see all the TT haters out in full force tonight, when everyone not named Joe Smith pretty much sucked. And please don't say Gray played well. He was very good offensively, but he was manhandled on the defensive end.

But back to the TT issue for a second, let's disect his game since many like to bash the kid. Offensively, he went 1-7, obviously not good. The one shot he made was a very nice low post spin move. One of his misses was on a dunk attempt that he was fouled on, at least imo he was. Another miss was on a jump shot from about 18 feet that was in and out, I'll take that at this stage in his career. Another miss was on a driving layup with, I believe, the shotclock running down (the one that Noah tipped in). Honestly, I don't recall the other misses, they must have come when I stepped away. So 4-7 shots, I can live with what I saw.

Defensively, I don't think the goaltending calls were actually goaltending (don't recall if it was 2 or 3). Regardeless, the two that I saw, the shots were above the square with the ball still on it's way up. As far as his one on one defense, it wasn't that good, but let's not forget he was out there guarding everyone at one point, even Marbury.

Back to offense, sure we looked stagnant towards the end, but what do you expect when we continue to see Wallace out there and BG is launching airballs? Yes he made silly mistakes, offensive foul and turnovers, but let's not single him out when the rest of the guys (again, not named Smith) played like crap too.

I'm by no means trying to defend TT's play tonight, but to bash him and call out the TT supporters on this forum is just wrong. Look, we got our 38 and 34 minutes from Wallace and Smith tonight. We're not winning any championships with those guys, let's face it.

I'm happy to see TT get his minutes, mistakes and all. In fact I want to see more of the "little 3" as I will from now on refer to them as (TT, Noah, Gray). Call me crazy, but I liked what I saw out there when all three were on the floor.

[Mr. Tibbs]

thank you sonny d1. I'm a full fledged tyrus supporter and i'll gladly admit he sucked ass tonight down the stretch. However, we've seen him play big minutes in plenty of games last year..and he's had some real clutch defense in the past (if his goaltends were called blocks..this may have been similar).
He's by no means cleared from responsibility from his putrid play..but i always have some leeway for all players to blow it a few times through the course of the season. Thomas messed this one up. Wallace' rope imo, wore thin long ago.

[pduh01]

I guess no one knows the answer to my question or ignore my question :cries:

[LIbullsfan]

I guess no one knows the answer to my question or ignore my question :cries:

It was a temporary switch, i noticed on that play gordon was on lee

[BullSoxChicago'sFinest]

Ugh, I'm all for Tyrus playing more, but a jumpshot down the stretch? Then you get a horrible shot by Ben Gordon with 2 min left, before the last one he missed. We have to be the dumbest defensive team. Not bad, just stupid. It's like we're playing the All Legends Team, all the time, double everyone! If it's a stat, we'd lead the league in open 3 point shots allowed.

And screw Ben Wallace. Grey should play more. Showcase him all you want, it won't do crap, nobody will want him, you dug your own grave with the terrible signing, now live with it

[StutterStep]

We went through the motions tonight, and let the Knicks either win or lose the game. They decided to win the game. It was our own doing.. we kept them in the game. Our defense has been terrible the entire game, and our offense is going to be up and down. We need to get out defense in order, Boylan hasn't done much with the defense thus far.

Good recap. A few points...

1) I thought you guys lost the game in the fourth quarter because when Gray went out of the game. It gave us an advantage (on the defensive side) because you had both Tyrus and Ben Wallace in the game.

2) Rebounding -- we were losing the rebounding battle early and again in the 3rd quarter because the REFS got Zach for 3 very questionable fouls. As well as Eddy played offensively tonight, he did not protect the defensive board and let Gray murder him for a good stretch.

3) Our guards played a very good defensive game collectively and when the Bigs were not in the game, they carried the offense.

[AirP.]

I firmly put this loss on the defense that we played on Eddie Curry. The one stinking reason we have Ben Wallace on this team, to slow down other team's big scoring low post players and he drops 29 on us. Why even have Ben Wallace on the court if he can't do the one job we need him to do when he's one of the worst offensive players ever in this league.

Nocioni was sick, Tyrus played out of position, both had bad games... but when you Noah and Gray easily outplaying Ben Wallace and you go with Wallace for 40 minutes, I put that on the coach, the GM and Wallace himself.

Dear Boylan, when you're going against probably the worst frontcourt in the league with Randolph and Curry leading the way, maybe using Gray more who scored 12 in 10 minutes was a move you should have done? Keep your rotations solid, but if we have a distinct advantage and Gray vs the Knicks frontcourt was, you HAVE to use that advantage. IT WAS JUST PLAIN POOR COACHING.

Playing a guy like Wallace just takes away such a big negative like New York's big's defense is... we strengthened them by not attacking their weakness... it's just piss poor coaching, nothing more.

[Rerisen]

Nice to see all the TT haters out in full force tonight, when everyone not named Joe Smith pretty much sucked.

It really is amazing to the extent the board has become polarized over Tyrus Thomas's minutes.

Earlier the accusation was made sarcastically that people were at least happy Tyrus got his minutes even though the team lost. Well you could equally say the other side was happy to get a chance to prove their 'Tyrus Sucks' line was correct even though the team lost. They certainly can't say it was at the expense of his minutes though, since Joe and Big Ben both played even larger minutes themselves. With Deng out and Noc's being ill, we didn't have a lot of choices.

Bulls fans are busy arguing about how to kill a cockroach in the basement when the house is burning down around them.

[girlygirl]

What's really sad is that Tuesday morning I was looking at the rest of the Bulls' schedule for January and thinking to myself that they actaually had a decent shot of being back to .500 heading into February. But after tonight's debacle, that optmism has drained away...

They've already lost 10 games at home this season...that's as many as they lost all last season

They are 0-13 when giving up 100 points, yet Boylan doesn't think the defense needs fixing?

Aside from the 2 wins against Detroit, they haven't beaten a really good team all year. And they still haven't managed to win more than 2 games in a row.

I'm stubbornly clinging to hope that they can still turn this season around to an extent. If they make a trade, I hope they bring in someone with a killer instinct, who knows how to close out close games. Because no one on the current roster seems to have much of a killer instinct. I know that the Bulls players want to win, but for whatever reason their collective basketball IQs seem to drop drastically late in tight games. And even when they execute the play well, they still can't finish by hitting shots. They shot 6-for-20 (30%) in the 4th quarter tonight and didn't score at all in something like the last 5 minutes. That's just sad.