Gordon wants out of Chicago?

[JCrossover#1]

[quote="The 6ft Hurdle"][/quote]

Well, if by THE GUY you understand our best player, then Gordon is not the unanimous pick. And I dont think there is a player in the NBA that is THE GUY for his team and comes off the bench.
I dont see the other teams' fans saying "we are playing against Gordon and the Bulls".

[DuckIII]

How is he not THE guy in Chicago?

Leading scorer...? Check.

Guy who gets double teamed...? Check.

Guy everyone EXPECTS to get hot...? Check.

Guy to pass to at the end of games...? Check.

Only a small percentage of fans appear to value him higher than Deng is valued. And management, by some accounts, offered Deng more money than Gordon and when coupled with their ages and complete games, and the fact that the players voted him captain over Gordon, the logical conclusion is that the organization values Deng higher than BG as well.

All the things you note are correct. But they all say the same thing: he's the number 1 shooting option on the team by a slim margin over Luol Deng. But all things considered, I think its a stretch to say he's viewed as "the guy" on the team by the fanbase at large and by management.

Moving on, I don't necessarily find this story to be particularly meaningful as it appears to be based purely on the interviewer's subjective impressions. But I ask this: How many of you would actually be surprised if those subjective impressions later proved to be objectively accurate?

I certainly wouldn't be.

[coldfish]

Moving on, I don't necessarily find this story to be particularly meaningful as it appears to be based purely on the interviewer's subjective impressions. But I ask this: How many of you would actually be surprised if those subjective impressions later proved to be objectively accurate?

I certainly wouldn't be.

Doug and I had the same conclusion when Gordon went to the bench. While nothing has been said publicly, I think its perfectly reasonable to assume that Gordon will seek a sign and trade this offseason. He has already threatened to just take the QO, and that was before he was benched.

I do think Gordon would be lucky at this point to get an offer equal to what the Bulls already offered him. That, in itself, adds to the problem. Finding a team who is willing to give him what he wants is going to be difficult and if you do, what do they have to trade back?

Paxson has a tricky situation on his plate right now with Gordon. IMO, he has virtually no trade value. He has cemented his image this year as a streaky, undersized bench player. Its going to be difficult to get anything for him, now or in the summer.

Worst case is that the Bulls lose Gordon for very little in trade and the team has yet another hole to fill.

[DuckIII]

Doug and I had the same conclusion when Gordon went to the bench. While nothing has been said publicly, I think its perfectly reasonable to assume that Gordon will seek a sign and trade this offseason. He has already threatened to just take the QO, and that was before he was benched.

And as I said then, and as has been further supported since then, he'd be **** stupid as hell if the move to the bench was the reason he became disgruntled with the organization.

As far as his free agency is concerned, its the best thing - by an enormous margin - thats happened to him all season. Indeed, it most likely has resurrected value that had effectively gone in the tank. It breaks down like this:

Starter/Bench
35.7 mpg/36.9
17.6 ppg/27.1
38.9 fg%/51.1
33.6 3pt%/48.6
3.7 fta/4.7
0.9 spg/0.7
3.7 rpg/4.1
2.8 apg/2.6

Those improvements are absolutely staggering. As a "bench" player, his numbers are literally elite. As a starter, his numbers, combined with his stature and reputation as a perimeter defensive mismatch (in a bad way), were those of an MLE player.

[Leslie Forman]

Frankly, I think building around Ben Gordon as your leading scorer is a massive mistake, and we'd regret it like the Bucks regret building around Michael Redd

[Leslie Forman]

Frankly, I think building around Ben Gordon as your leading scorer is a massive mistake, and we'd regret it like the Bucks regret building around Michael Redd

[coldfish]

Doug and I had the same conclusion when Gordon went to the bench. While nothing has been said publicly, I think its perfectly reasonable to assume that Gordon will seek a sign and trade this offseason. He has already threatened to just take the QO, and that was before he was benched.

And as I said then, and as has been further supported since then, he'd be **** stupid as hell if the move to the bench was the reason he became disgruntled with the organization.

As far as his free agency is concerned, its the best thing - by an enormous margin - thats happened to him all season. Indeed, it most likely has resurrected value that had effectively gone in the tank. It breaks down like this:

Starter/Bench
35.7 mpg/36.9
17.6 ppg/27.1
38.9 fg%/51.1
33.6 3pt%/48.6
3.7 fta/4.7
0.9 spg/0.7
3.7 rpg/4.1
2.8 apg/2.6

Those improvements are absolutely staggering. As a "bench" player, his numbers are literally elite. As a starter, his numbers, combined with his stature and reputation as a perimeter defensive mismatch (in a bad way), were those of an MLE player.

I don't dispute that. If anything, I agree with it and would go further with it. Who is going to pay a guy who is better coming off the bench a lot of money?

Answer: No one.

I know that, you know that, Paxson knows that, Boylan knows that and Gordon knows that. Gordon's only shot for a big pay day was either:
- Prove to be a very good starter in the NBA
- Prove that he can play the point

Gordon has basically proven the opposite of each one of those. He is Barbosa with apparently less PG skills.

By all accounts, Gordon has always wanted to be a top NBA player. His play and the resulting handling by Chicago has made that impossible. He may (and the likelihood of this may be high) feel that another team may give him a better opportunity to prove his apparent self evaluation. If that's the case, he is gone.

The only way that Gordon sticks around is if he wraps his mind around the idea of being a career Barbosa type. That's how the team is using him and its likely how potential free agent suitors view him. Barbosa certainly does not have a mountain of trade value and if he was getting paid 10M per year, it may be negative.

I always end up apparently defending Gordon in many threads, but the reality is that I probably have a lower opinion of his skills and trade value than many people here.

Edit add: My only hope is that the team tries him at PG before is dumped just to make sure he can't do it. For all the complaining people do about Gordon's turnovers, he has the second lowest turnover rate on the team behind Joe Smith.

[Leslie Forman]

That's a complete rebuild trade and not a particularly good one. While I agree that its a mistake to build around Gordon, why dump Tyrus right now? Why take on Curry and his contract? Its just as bad as Gordon's could be and Curry is certainly no player you would want to build around either.

Yeah

[Cliff Levingston]

Frankly, I think building around Ben Gordon as your leading scorer is a massive mistake, and we'd regret it like the Bucks regret building around Michael Redd

[Cliff Levingston]

Edit add: My only hope is that the team tries him at PG before is dumped just to make sure he can't do it. For all the complaining people do about Gordon's turnovers, he has the second lowest turnover rate on the team behind Joe Smith.

Ditto, but Gordon would be doomed to failure if he was made the PG in our current offense.

[DuckIII]

Who is going to pay a guy who is better coming off the bench a lot of money?

Answer: No one.

I know that, you know that, Paxson knows that, Boylan knows that and Gordon knows that.

I don't know that. In fact, it doesn't make sense to me at all. If you are a "bench" player who is putting up 25+ ppg on excellent percentages and logging 37 minutes a night, I think a team would be bonkers to trump that with whether your name is announced while the lights are out prior to tip off.

If I'm Philly, for example, and I think I can get elite perimeter scoring production out of a player for 35-37 minutes a game so long as I don't play him in the first 6 minutes following tip-off, I'm throwing the same money at him as I would if those six minutes of bench time came at the last 3 minutes/first 3 minutes of the first and second quarters.

Does Manu Ginobli actually have less value around the league because of how the Spurs use him?

He may (and the likelihood of this may be high) feel that another team may give him a better opportunity to prove his apparent self evaluation. If that's the case, he is gone.

And that is the basis of my first post in the thread. It wouldn't surprise me if he wanted a different role elsewhere - primary scorer/decision maker with the ball in his hand most of the time.

But if he bases it on the Bulls moving him to a 6th man role this season, he's an idiot.

Edit add: My only hope is that the team tries him at PG before is dumped just to make sure he can't do it. For all the complaining people do about Gordon's turnovers, he has the second lowest turnover rate on the team behind Joe Smith.

I'm lukewarm on that. But I'd note that I think most of the complaints about Gordon's turnovers are about when they happen, not how many he commits.

[ATRAIN53]

one can overanalyze BG all day long but the basic fact will be that at the end of the year he'll be a FA with the following credentials:

25 years old
4 year NBA vet averaging 19 PPG
former 6th man of the year, only rookie to ever win this award.
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Free-Throw Percentage

he'll get offered between 10-15mil per year by someone who offers him a starting job and the Bulls will probably not match it.

i could see him on a lot of other teams, East or West.
but for some reason i'm thinking he surfaces in Philly or NJ wearing #4 again. perhaps even Boston.

i'll miss him but i want him to move on for his own good.

[Cliff Levingston]

Realistically, the only way we'll lose Ben to is if he refuses to sign a contract here. His value won't be as high as he thinks it is on the free agent market due to his height/position combination and there are very few teams that'll be able to offer him a bigger contract than the Bulls would be willing to match.

Cliff Levingston also has a hard time seeing him taking the QO. If he can't get an offer he likes this offseason then there would be no reason to believe he'll get one the next offseason when he's unrestricted.

In other words, Cliff Levingston isn't worried about losing him.

[DuckIII]

he'll get offered between 10-15mil per year by someone who offers him a starting job and the Bulls will probably not match it.

I think his recent play has nudged him back to the $10 million per he rejected this summer and with exceptional play, including successful and impactful playoff performances this season, he might edge towards the $12 million per (and I mean he's going to have to be REALLY good, as in pretty much maintaining his current level of play).

Let me give you the counter argument to how a team could evaluate Gordon's value on the open market:

(a) Better off the bench (credit to coldfish);
(b) Creates bad defensive mis-matches at the off guard;
(c) Undersized as an off guard;
(d) Poor finisher around the rim;
(e) Streaky, lacking consistency;
(f) No longer the clutch performer he was early in career;
(g) If to be used at point, unproven;
(h) If to be used at point, shoot first, not a facilitator;
(i) Troubling history of starting seasons slowly is actually getting worse as career progresses.

[NLK]

Starter/Bench
35.7 mpg/36.9
17.6 ppg/27.1
38.9 fg%/51.1
33.6 3pt%/48.6
3.7 fta/4.7
0.9 spg/0.7
3.7 rpg/4.1
2.8 apg/2.6

Those improvements are absolutely staggering. As a "bench" player, his numbers are literally elite. As a starter, his numbers, combined with his stature and reputation as a perimeter defensive mismatch (in a bad way), were those of an MLE player.

I'll say! He's more effective coming off the bench. If he seeks a S&T to go play elsewhere, he'll get less $ and less minutes.

[coldfish]

I don't know that. In fact, it doesn't make sense to me at all. If you are a "bench" player who is putting up 25+ ppg on excellent percentages and logging 37 minutes a night, I think a team would be bonkers to trump that with whether your name is announced while the lights are out prior to tip off.

If I'm Philly, for example, and I think I can get elite perimeter scoring production out of a player for 35-37 minutes a game so long as I don't play him in the first 6 minutes following tip-off, I'm throwing the same money at him as I would if those six minutes of bench time came at the last 3 minutes/first 3 minutes of the first and second quarters.

Does Manu Ginobli actually have less value around the league because of how the Spurs use him?

I think you are supposing certain things. Basically, no player ever signed with the expectation of coming off the bench has got big money. If Gordon got it, he would be the first.

Ginobli is actually a perfect example of this. Ginobli, when on the court, is consistently one of the best players in the NBA. Yet he has a pretty small contract relative to his productivity. I think the only reasonable explanation for that is his starting status. He actually makes less than Parker.

In general, if you were to make lists of 2G's in the NBA made by fans or the media, Ginobli would be lower on the list than he really should be and the reason is his lack of minutes and touches. I would put him as the #3 SG in the NBA right now behind Kobe and Wade, but I doubt that most would.

And that is the basis of my first post in the thread. It wouldn't surprise me if he wanted a different role elsewhere - primary scorer/decision maker with the ball in his hand most of the time.

But if he bases it on the Bulls moving him to a 6th man role this season, he's an idiot.

Why? Do you think that he will ever get another shot to be a regular starter on the Bulls? I don't think so. This board is littered with discussion about ways to get a big guard on Chicago because Kirk / Ben doesn't work. If that happens, then Gordon would be permanently on the bench.

He would be an idiot if he didn't know that.
I think the source of our disagreement is the effect of "bench" status on a player's standing in the league. The perfect example, again, is Ginobli, even though people like to bring him up on the other side of the argument. People comment that "Ginobli is well regarded coming off the bench", but the reality is that he is regarded as "good" where he should be regarded as "freakin awesome".

[blumeany]

Why wouldn't he be disgruntled? First the Bulls offer him an extension, then they put him in a better position to score more points and play more minutes. I mean, I'd be pissed!

[Beryl 96]

Still say we somehow make Deng and Hinrich for Ofakor and Richardson happen, Dunno CBA/BYC stuff, but theres gotta be a way around it.

And if we did pull it off, we should run all over the league with Gordon as our PG, yeah hes unproven, but people are capable of this thing called learning, and I'm confident BG can do so, and at this point he isn't all that much worse than Hinrich is at PG, and in such a pipedream, not only would we be a better team(hopefully), but we'd be way more interesting to watch, especially if TT gets some playing time, him and richardson dunking everywhere would be good stuff.

[bre9]

Why would Gordon want to be a long term 6th man on the Bulls please this team is not the Spurs or the Suns. The Bulls are right now a below average team(13-20). This team is not even build right they don't have an big guard who can produce and fit into our small backcourt or they don't have a low post scorer. Gordon and Deng our the only special guys on this team. While all the worry is about Gordon for this off season it needs to be on Deng too he's the one who turned down a bigger contract then Gordon. This is going be an interesting off season.

[fudgie]

I'm pretty skeptical about the source of this information. The New York media has been known to blow things out of proportion and it would have been kind of stupid on Ben's part to come out with something like this.

That said, according to wiretap Iggy is unhappy about the current situation in Philly. Is there any way we could swing some kind of Gordon for Iggy trade either now or in the offseason. It might be possible if Iggy decides to force his way out. We'd get a better fit in Iggy, Ben Gordon would get to be 'the man' in Philly and Philly would get a good return on a player who doesn't want to be there (this whole scenario assumes that Iggy wants out). Oh well, a man can dream.