Raptors rebounding when Bargs is in the game.

cdel00 · Post #1 » by **cdel00** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:17 pm

Since there is a lengthy thread describing just how bad Bargs' rebounding numbers are I'd like to discuss his impact on his team mates rebounding numbers while he's on the court.

Since, we know Bargs isn't getting rebounding credit, I'd like to know if the team is getting that many less rebounds while he's in or are other players getting more rebounds while Bargs is in and the team as a whole rebounds as well or better with Bargs on the court.

From observation it appears that Bargs is a positive rebounding presence from a team perspective and his man actually gets less rebounds when Bargs is boxing him out. I also have noticed that Bargs like Rasho loves to tap the ball instead of coming down with it hence the rebounding credit goes to another player (Moon and Bosh seem to grab alot more).

If anyone can post some numbers that would be great

Fairview4Life · Post #2 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:21 pm

http://www.82games.com/0708/07TOR13D.HTM

Defensive rebounding is 2.5% better with him on the bench, offensive rebounding is 0.8% better with him on the bench.

82games also posts player pairs, so you can see how each individual does with Bargs on the floor:

http://82games.com/0708/0708TORP.HTM

cdel00 · Post #3 » by **cdel00** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:22 pm

Awesome Fairview thanks for the link

Post #4 » by **Duffman100** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:23 pm

At least the Ford/Calderon threads have stopped.

Joker · Post #5 » by **Joker** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:23 pm

cdel00 wrote:Since there is a lengthy thread describing just how bad Bargs' rebounding numbers are I'd like to discuss his impact on his team mates rebounding numbers while he's on the court.

Since, we know Bargs isn't getting rebounding credit, I'd like to know if the team is getting that many less rebounds while he's in or are other players getting more rebounds while Bargs is in and the team as a whole rebounds as well or better with Bargs on the court.

From observation it appears that Bargs is a positive rebounding presence from a team perspective and his man actually gets less rebounds when Bargs is boxing him out. I also have noticed that Bargs like Rasho loves to tap the ball instead of coming down with it hence the rebounding credit goes to another player (Moon and Bosh seem to grab alot more).
If anyone can post some numbers that would be great

I'm not sure what the NBA rule is, but in FIBA rules, if it is a deliberate, controlled tap to a teammate, the person who tapped it would get credit for the rebound.

The_Hater · Post #6 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:23 pm

Duffman100 wrote:At least the Ford/Calderon threads have stopped.

lol

The_Hater · Post #7 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:26 pm

Joker wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I'm not sure what the NBA rule is, but in FIBA rules, if it is a deliberate, controlled tap to a teammate, the person who tapped it would get credit for the rebound.

I always thought that this was the NBA rule as well but Jack stated last week that the opposite was true.

OP, even if Bargs isn't getting credit for taps, how many times has this happened all season? 3? 5? And would 5 taps that he never got credit for really change the numbers and somehow prove that he's not all that bad? Hardly.

Fairview4Life · Post #8 » by **Fairview4Life** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:28 pm

Bargs was tapping it a bit at the start of the year. He also looked interested in rebounding way back then as well.,,like that 30 second stretch last night. Now if he taps the ball it's either going out of bounds, or to the other team.

Post #9 » by **Yuri Vaultin** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:28 pm

I'm afraid I don't have any numbers just observations. First, off I will state for the record I am a big Bargs supporter... That being said if I was to guess I would say he has a negative impact on rebounds when on the floor - he rarely boxes opponents out and get's far more tap-outs in to opponents hands than rebounds into his own.

This is something that will improve, although it could be improved much faster if the raps had a good Bigman coach.

duppyy · Post #10 » by **duppyy** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:29 pm

Duffman100 wrote:At least the Ford/Calderon threads have stopped.

Well thats cause Fords unjury proved that we are lost and a **** team without him.

Post #11 » by **Yuri Vaultin** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:32 pm

YounG GunneR wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Well thats cause Fords unjury proved that we are lost and a **** team without him.

True. I'm gonna be happy to see him come off the bench to back up Jose...

JN · Post #12 » by JN » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:36 pm

Sometimes he taps the ball because he is lazy to either make a hard effort or get into position. Sorry but I have no other reasonable way to explain it. He could easily go up with two hands and snag it, but he just taps it with absolutely no clue where it goes.

cdel00 · Post #13 » by **cdel00** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:37 pm

From the numbers Bargs does hurt the team defensive rebounding while on the court by 2.6% which looks to directly co-relate with the Rap's defense being about 2% worse with Bargs on the court.

Bottom line is Bargs needs to develop better rebounding skills for the team to be more efficient with him on the court.

The_Hater · Post #14 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:38 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:Bargs was tapping it a bit at the start of the year. He also looked interested in rebounding way back then as well.,,like that 30 second stretch last night. Now if he taps the ball it's either going out of bounds, or to the other team.

Yeah. Back in November he wasn't great but still looked improved over last year. About 5 boards every 25 mpg. And that was pretty much the type of improvement that I was looking for from him this season.

Since then his production has been worse than ever and dipped to about 1/2 that rate. I can't help but think that 90% of that dip is nothing more than a lack of effort.

Post #15 » by **Yuri Vaultin** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:42 pm

The_Hater wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Yeah. Back in November he wasn't great but still looked improved over last year. About 5 boards every 25 mpg. And that was pretty much the type of improvement that I was looking for from him this season.

Since then his production has been worse than ever and dipped to about 1/2 that rate. I can't help but think that 90% of that dip is nothing more than a lack of effort.

Since then his overall game has slumped - his production in each category. I think a lack of confidence and over-thinking instead of reacting has had more of an effect than lack of effort... I think they are all linked though... We keep on seeing flashes of what he is capable of doing - it's just a matter of having him sustain it for any amount of time.

tecumseh18 · Post #16 » by **tecumseh18** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:56 pm

Duffman100 wrote:At least the Ford/Calderon threads have stopped.

Yeah, now it's a heated debate between those who think Bargs is a horrendous rebounder and those who think he's the worst (for his size) in the history of organized basketball.

It's clear that it's largely a lack of effort. There's an ennui (or malaise) about Bargs this year. He seems to have had it during Euro championship, so I wouldn't say it's because he's tuning Sam out. I think Bargs is the sort of diva-ish guy who wants everything perfect, otherwise he sulks. If his back hurts (this summer) or his knee hurts (recently), he doesn't play well. If the pasta is too soft (see interview on raptors.com) he doesn't play well.

The_Hater · Post #17 » by **The_Hater** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:57 pm

YounG GunneR wrote:Well thats cause Fords unjury proved that we are lost and a **** team without him.

So playing all the elite teams like Phoenix (twice), Boston, Detroit, San Antonio, Dallas, Houston (twice), Cleveland, Portland and New Orleans, many of them on the road, and still going .500 over that period is **** now?

So if we had TJ, and then he in turn had a better back-up than Juan Dixon, we would have gone what? 13-5? 14-4? Rolled through those slugs to the tune of 17-1?!?

Not that people's expectations are out of whack or anything....

Darrick Martin · Post #18 » by **Darrick Martin** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:00 pm

tecumseh18 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Yeah, now it's a heated debate between those who think Bargs is a horrendous rebounder and those who think he's the worst (for his size) in the history of organized basketball.

It's clear that it's largely a lack of effort. There's an ennui (or malaise) about Bargs this year. He seems to have had it during Euro championship, so I wouldn't say it's because he's tuning Sam out. I think Bargs is the sort of diva-ish guy who wants everything perfect, otherwise he sulks. If his back hurts (this summer) or his knee hurts (recently), he doesn't play well. If the pasta is too soft (see interview on raptors.com) he doesn't play well.

I foresee a new defensive option for him: diving.

bargs · Post #19 » by **bargs** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:02 pm

The_Hater wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

lol

stra--lol

villabong · Post #20 » by **villabong** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:11 pm

Bargs looks like he has no judgment of where the balls going to come off the rim. The only rebounds he gets are the ones that come directly to him. As the Raptors' perimeter defence has been suspect especially with Calderon replacing Ford in the starting line up, the bigs have been forced to step up to contest shots and lose track of their men. Bosh can still rebound because he has an instinct of where the ball is going. Bargnani hasn't developed that yet and he looks lost after he rotates.