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Post#21 » by C.lupus » Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:39 pm

MN Die Hard wrote:Yep, so even though I see this as a positive step in the long-term rebuilding process (dumping Jaric, getting two guys on longer-term rookie contracts), I do acknowledge this is quite a painful step for the short term. The Wolves would be losing four guys who are contributing now, and getting back question marks. Definitely will not help us win games this year.

But I go back to the fact that they are contributing to a four-win team, so unless we're certain they are part of the future (and two of the four obviously are not), I say roll the dice.

I'd say Armstrong and Wright are at least as good of prospects as Smith and Gomes, respectively. And the other four guys result in cost savings to the Wolves.

I don't even think it would be that painful. So we would win 10 games instead of 15? No one short of Michael Jordan in his prime would help us win a significant amount of games.

Walker and Jaric have no future here. Smith and Gomes are nice but are role players on a 4-win team. We can get those anytime. Might as well try something different now.
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Post#22 » by shrink » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:12 pm

MN Die Hard wrote: But I go back to the fact that they are contributing to a four-win team, so unless we're certain they are part of the future (and two of the four obviously are not), I say roll the dice.

I'd say Armstrong and Wright are at least as good of prospects as Smith and Gomes, respectively. And the other four guys result in cost savings to the Wolves.


I agree completely. I don't mind giving up loads of production this season if it results in prospects and cap savings. Your trade does a good job at both, and with the big production change, may be appealing to the Hornets.
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Post#23 » by shrink » Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:39 pm

The Hornets may go for this. Many posters there have wanted to get Jaric, and they are playing great with virutally no bench at all. Walker is an expiring contract next season for them that they could trade for other needs, but it breaks down like this financially for the Hornets:

2007-08: -$3.1
2008-09: -$2.0
2009-10: +$1.6
2010-11: -$0.9
--------------------
OVERALL COST TO HORNETS: $4.4 mil more over 4 years.

As you can see, the cost isn't financial to them, the cost is two young prospects.
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Post#24 » by Magoose » Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:02 pm

Nice deal. I think I agree with the most you that it's a tough decision to make. Though it certainly aches my heart quite a bit to see rhino part with the wolves I think I would pull the trigger, too.

The only thing that scares me is that especially Cookie and maybe Gomes, too could develop be (much) more than a role player on another team.

Is it possible, that cookie could be more? I know he's undersized for a pf and thats why he lacks some tough defense and rebounding, but maybe he can be lostpost scoring monster, soon.

So my fear is, that we would give up Cookie and Walker's soon expiring way too low priced, even though getting two nice prospects back is a pretty benefit...

Aargh..definite a tough one... :dontknow:
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Post#25 » by 4ho5ive » Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:25 pm

MN Die Hard wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I would LOVE to get Julilan Wright here; I thought he had a lot of potential as a "do-everything" type player coming out of Kansas last year.

How about something like this. MN is giving up lots of production, so if its even possible, this year's team might even get worse. But we're dumping Jaric's long term deal. Over the long term, the money is actually pretty similar, but instead of paying Marko in 2009 and 2010, we're spending similar money to get a look at youngsters Wright and Armstrong.

Gomes, Smith, Jaric, Walker

for

Armstrong, Wright, Jackson, Butler

NO immediatly adds four guys who will contribute in exchange for two guys allegedly in the doghouse (Jax and Butler) and two guys contributing little to nothing (Armstrong and Wright).

MN takes another (painful) step toward rebuilding.


Thats an excellent trade thought. I would much rather insert Richard instead of Cookie, and you can make the argument that Richard is more appealing as he can back up both the 4 and 5 spots. But if they wouldnt take Rich instead of Smith i think i may still do it. The only question for me is would BJax be able to play some Point till Foye is ready, and will he be ready to sit once he is fully healthy.

Telfair/Jax/Foye
McCants/Jax/Brew/Green
Brew/Butler/Green
Jefferson/Richard
Armstrong/Richard

Draft Beasley?
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Post#26 » by revprodeji » Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:29 pm

First glance I really do not like this deal. jaric+Gomes+Richard for Hilton+Pargo+butler.

looking at it in more detail, I really do not like it. I like Richard more than Hilton. Hilton seems like he does not always care and try. Richard tries hard and is a prototype back up banger. I like Gomes alot more than Butler. I want to try and resign Gomes this offseason. If we move him then do it for a better piece. He is playing very well for us right now. Jaric and pargo is a tough situation. I think Jaric played very well with Foye last year and Pargo will not get minutes behind Bassy and Foye.

I am sure money is nice in this deal, and Char gets a hell of a talent shot in the arm, but I really do not like this deal.

Can someone try and sell me more on it?
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Post#27 » by 4ho5ive » Tue Jan 8, 2008 2:57 am

revprodeji wrote:First glance I really do not like this deal. jaric+Gomes+Richard for Hilton+Pargo+butler.

looking at it in more detail, I really do not like it. I like Richard more than Hilton. Hilton seems like he does not always care and try. Richard tries hard and is a prototype back up banger. I like Gomes alot more than Butler. I want to try and resign Gomes this offseason. If we move him then do it for a better piece. He is playing very well for us right now. Jaric and pargo is a tough situation. I think Jaric played very well with Foye last year and Pargo will not get minutes behind Bassy and Foye.

I am sure money is nice in this deal, and Char gets a hell of a talent shot in the arm, but I really do not like this deal.

Can someone try and sell me more on it?


Well at first glance Rev is mos def old school as they havent been Charlotte for years now, lol.

But I think Armstrong moreso than Richard has a shot at being the prototype C that we want next to Big Al. At best I see Richard as being a solid backup, at worst, a decent backup. Armstrong is a bigger gamble but we dont need a backup more than we need a starter at the position.

Pargo wont need many minutes as he is expiring and Butler is solid as is Gomes but Butlers contract is far more reasonable than Jaric's.

I see where you are coming from though, we are in essence trading away 3 solid roleplayers for money and 1 young prospect, however i think he can really help us. i didnt really solidify my argument did i, lol?
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Post#28 » by MN Die Hard » Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:05 am

revprodeji wrote:Can someone try and sell me more on it?


I'll try.

1. Wright has the potential to be the best player in the trade. He was talked about as a potential top-five pick last year in the draft as a do-everything small forward from Kansas (maybe Josh Howard-like?). With time to develop, I would be surprised if he doesnt provide AT LEAST the production Gomes provides. He hasnt had a chance to do much in NO yet this season...in MN he would get time to play.

2. Armstrong came out of college known as a defender/rebounder, but not a particularily strong offensive player....exactly the type of player we've been saying we need to put next to Big Al. Having a young center prospect locked up means we dont necessarily have to look at that position in the draft. We still might, but we've given ourselves more flexibility.

3. As much as we like Smith, ultimately he wont be more than a backup in MN as long as Al is here playing PF. Neither of them is suited to play C on a regular basis, so why not exchange him for a center prospect?

4. The young guys leaving MN (Gomes, Smith) are free agents and MN could very likely lose them (either willingly or against our will) this offseason. The young guys coming back (Armstrong, Wright) are still locked into relatively inexpensive rookie contracts for a few years.

5. With the possible exception of Buckner and perhaps Rasual Butler, this would leave MN without a truly bad contract on the roster. Did you ever think we'd be able to say that?
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Post#29 » by Xand1 » Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:21 am

I'd be in favor of anything that gets rid of Marko and brings Armstrong here. Here's Hollinger's scouting report with a few points of interest underlined:

2006-07 season: Despite being a lottery pick, Armstrong had an unusually hard time earning minutes and didn't get regular action until April; many of those minutes went to the seemingly inferior fellow rookie Cedric Simmons.

Armstrong's final numbers from the season were respectable, if hardly spectacular. He was a middle-of-the-pack backup center in most respects, converting shots at a higher rate than the league average for centers but taking far less of them. Armstrong relied on putbacks and dishes for most of his offense, as his post game is limited and he doesn't have much of a jumper.

Scouting report: Start with Chris Bosh, subtract offensive skill, and you've got Hilton Armstrong. He has the same slender build of the Raptors' star, and like Bosh can run the floor and move laterally like a much smaller player.

Those assets help him in screen-and-roll defense, but he needs to add muscle to defend the post. Not only did it hurt him in the battle for position, but Armstrong also was vulnerable to spin moves because he had to lean with all his might. Like a lot of rookies, his help defense needs work too, but he blocked shots at an above-average rate for a center and eventually should become quite proficient in this area.

2007-08 outlook: Armstrong figures to back up Tyson Chandler at the center spot, and for 10-15 minutes a night you could do a lot worse. He figures to get more comfortable defensively in his second year as a pro, and if so he could become an impact player at that end.


He may not be a stud, but he's young, long and cheap. A rotation of him and Richard at C would look pretty good compared to what we're doing now with Doleac, Madsen or this horrible Al + Smith experiment (at what point does it become obvious that said experiment is not working, by the way?). Maybe he'd flourish if all he had to do was grab some boards and block some shots... lord knows our screen and roll defense could use help, and the bit at the end about becoming an impact defensive player is intriguing.

I'd even do the Gomes + Smith + Marko trade proposed above. I love those guys, and solid bench players are valuable, but Wright and Armstrong are young, lotto-level talent. Given our current push for worst team of all time, it would be hard for any moves to make us much worse, so we may as well gear up as much as possible for the future.
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Post#30 » by MN Die Hard » Tue Jan 8, 2008 4:11 pm

What about a smaller deal, if NO is reluctant to part with the youngsters?

We can still dump Jaric's contract with any of these options:

Butler/Jackson for Jaric plus one of Green, Doleac, or Buckner.
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Post#31 » by shrink » Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:11 pm

Personally, when I determine trade value by looking at production, I think Jaric's not-so-expensive-but long contract equals Bobby Jackson's expensive-but-not-so-long contract. I don't think Butler is radically over-priced, but there is definitely something wrong with him this year, and I don't think he's a good fit here, particularly for three years. Jaric can still help us, alongside Telfair or alongside Foye, so I probably wouldn't even deal Buckner for Butler.
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Post#32 » by shrink » Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:13 pm

I like your deal here much better:

MN Die Hard wrote:Gomes, Smith, Jaric, Walker

for

Armstrong, Wright, Jackson, Butler
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Post#33 » by MN Die Hard » Tue Jan 8, 2008 6:12 pm

shrink wrote:I like your deal here much better:

MN Die Hard wrote:Gomes, Smith, Jaric, Walker

for

Armstrong, Wright, Jackson, Butler





I do too, but if NO is reluctant to give up Wright and/or Armstrong, I would do any of the other three deals just to dump Jaric. I agree that he is productive here, but I dont believe he has a future here. So dumping a bad contract now at the expense of some production is ok in my eyes.
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Post#34 » by shrink » Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:50 pm

I don't think we need to be so desperate to move Jaric.

Besides helping out here next to Foye or Telfair, in the last ten days, I've read trade proposals about him from five different teams (MIL, NO, NJN, ORL, PHO).
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Post#35 » by revprodeji » Tue Jan 8, 2008 9:01 pm

MN Die Hard wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I'll try.

1. Wright has the potential to be the best player in the trade. He was talked about as a potential top-five pick last year in the draft as a do-everything small forward from Kansas (maybe Josh Howard-like?). With time to develop, I would be surprised if he doesnt provide AT LEAST the production Gomes provides. He hasnt had a chance to do much in NO yet this season...in MN he would get time to play.

2. Armstrong came out of college known as a defender/rebounder, but not a particularily strong offensive player....exactly the type of player we've been saying we need to put next to Big Al. Having a young center prospect locked up means we dont necessarily have to look at that position in the draft. We still might, but we've given ourselves more flexibility.

3. As much as we like Smith, ultimately he wont be more than a backup in MN as long as Al is here playing PF. Neither of them is suited to play C on a regular basis, so why not exchange him for a center prospect?

4. The young guys leaving MN (Gomes, Smith) are free agents and MN could very likely lose them (either willingly or against our will) this offseason. The young guys coming back (Armstrong, Wright) are still locked into relatively inexpensive rookie contracts for a few years.

5. With the possible exception of Buckner and perhaps Rasual Butler, this would leave MN without a truly bad contract on the roster. Did you ever think we'd be able to say that?


couple things.

1.) I was not aware that Juels Wright would be part of that deal. It almost sounds like you are speaking about a different deal. The issue of course would be if NO is willing to part with Wright. Both DX and Net said the kid was a Boris Diaw type and I think that kind of skill set would be valuable to this team. Allowing Corey to spend more time at the 2. Basically a 3 man rotation of Wright/Corey/Shad at the 2 and 3.

2.) Wright is a deal-maker for me, Armstrong is not. He was uninterested and almost did not care for the first couple years at UConn. That scares me. I have not seen much of him lately, but he would not be the intense defender we are dreaming about from Hardin. Honestly, I like what chris Richard brings more than what I have seen from Armstrong. Richard has heart, he bangs. He runs to get back on defense. To me I would let them keep Armstrong if it meant I had to give up Richard.

3.) The logic with Craig makes sense, except that he is a very good back of 4 and Armstrong is nothing more than a back up 5 right now. I am all for moving smith if we got a solid starting 5, i just do not see Armstrong as that roll. Also, Craig might be content with being our first big off the bench. WHo knows.

4.) This is a very good point. But we also need to remember that Gomes and Smith are RFA so if we wanted to we could bring them back and we know what we got with those guys.

5.) Nice point, I think we overrate contracts. We wont get Lebron to sign here, what we need is cap responsability and the ability to bring in talented pieces to fit together.

Right now the deal seems different. You are speaking of

jaric+walker+Gomes+smith

for

Armstrong+wright+Jackson+Butler

Which clear gives us youth and gives NO a shot in the arm for a playoff run. In your deal we also keep Richard. I have really liked what I have seen from Gomes the last week or so and he is young still. hmm, I am not sold on this deal, but it is plausable. If it happened I would not complain too much.

On second thought, I think I want to keep Gomes more than I originally felt. For a couple reasons.

1./) Still young. So he has potential
2.) He has shown himself to have a high BBIQ, works hard and is great with the media
3.) He has a very good jumper and that is something we need with Al as a post option. WIth Randy coming back having an open jump shooter could help.

Part of me wonders if Gomes could be the long-term 3 option here. A similar 3 man rotation of Gomes/Brewer/Shad. He is only 24/25 or so. That being said. Could we do a

Walker+Smith+Jaric
for
Armstrong+Butler+Pargo+Jackson+protected future first?

We keep Gomes, they keep Wright (which they would be more likely to do anyway) we have too many players, but Doleac could easily be waived as an ending contract.

My only issue then is it leaves us really thin behind Al. Unless we plan on giving Armstrong and Richard heavy minutes at the 4. By moving walker and smith we lose offense with the back up post players. Mad Dog does not cut it.

hmm, I think I would do my version.
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Post#36 » by karch34 » Tue Jan 8, 2008 9:15 pm

revprodeji wrote:On second thought, I think I want to keep Gomes more than I originally felt. For a couple reasons.

1./) Still young. So he has potential
2.) He has shown himself to have a high BBIQ, works hard and is great with the media
3.) He has a very good jumper and that is something we need with Al as a post option. WIth Randy coming back having an open jump shooter could help.

Part of me wonders if Gomes could be the long-term 3 option here. A similar 3 man rotation of Gomes/Brewer/Shad. He is only 24/25 or so. That being said. Could we do a

Walker+Smith+Jaric
for
Armstrong+Butler+Pargo+Jackson+protected future first?

We keep Gomes, they keep Wright (which they would be more likely to do anyway) we have too many players, but Doleac could easily be waived as an ending contract.

My only issue then is it leaves us really thin behind Al. Unless we plan on giving Armstrong and Richard heavy minutes at the 4. By moving walker and smith we lose offense with the back up post players. Mad Dog does not cut it.

hmm, I think I would do my version.


I like Gomes as well. That's not to say he's untouchable, but it'd have to be the right deal. A Marko salary dump isn't enough, at least in the current deal.

I do like your idea. As you said we'd need to cut someone and would be thin at the 4. I think we might be best served with a second deal where we do a 2 for 1 or 3 for 2. I'll have to think about what might work but maybe some kind of Pargo, Green, and/or Doleac for ? might be plausible since the contracts aren't huge. I think Gomes could play some PF, but major minutes there isn't the best option.
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Post#37 » by karch34 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:30 pm

I've been thinking more about this one and what about a Smith and Jaric for Armstrong and Jackson?

More likely? Less likely?
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Post#38 » by revprodeji » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:59 pm

karch34 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I think Gomes could play some PF, but major minutes there isn't the best option.


It would not be major minutes. Al plays 30-35 which would leave 13-18 minutes. We could give most of those to Gomes and some to Richard even if we wanted to. As Worm pointed out in a different thread, we do not need much for a back up to Al because Al plays so many minutes.
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