Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

[Yuri Vaultin]

BRING BACK KEADY!!!!!

[Sun Tzu]

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I can't fault Moon either, it's good that he's aggressive, but rebounding is group responsibility. The problem is that if one player usurps the role of another, or a player allows that to happen, you begin assuming that that player is always going to do the job. Grange had an interesting observation in his blog about how one play got royally screwed last night - on an inbounds play, Moon didn't switch cover as he was supposed to, AP was caught off out of position as a result and over-compensated to cover an Iguodala, who as a consequence drove past AP and Bargnani was half-assed with help D - unsure - and incurred a foul. And 1. Three different players, three mistakes. We sometimes think a screwup is one player's fault, but often it's a series of mistakes.

I don't see what this analysis changes. EVERYONE is getting to rebounds that Bargs should be pulling in. Their team, our team, guys in the front row. These aren't different issues - our guys not letting Bargs in on the action. Having Moon back off isn't the problem. And telling Bargs to be on the lookout for Moon, when the ball should be his, isn't the issue either.

And, frankly, I am not sure your account of one particular play is of much value either. Sure, when people screw up, it makes others look bad. But I would want to see more than an anecdotes before I thought that it was Moon's poor defence that was routinely making Bargs look bad (at least, more often that the opposite is true).

[I_Like_Dirt]

Sam's 'one size fits all' style of coaching is not working with Andrea. So move on and find a way to help the kid succeed. Everyone agrees that Bargnani is regressing and some of that has to fall on the coach.

Since when does Sam have a "one size fits all: style of coaching? He has that kind of style with the media, but it's blatantly obvious on the court, and even on the bench, how he teaches and motivates players differently and gives them different roles in order to help them better succeed. It even showed when they showed the practice on NBA TV last season.

A more obvious example of different roles and goals for players is in shot selection where Bargnani is allowed a lot more leeway than Humphries. He's also allowed a lot more leeway in the hustle department where Humphries will often get yanked if he isn't full-out running all the time down the court.

Some of the blame has to fall on the coach, but I don't think a whole lot of it, and even less in this case. Bargnani is simply playing terrible and not getting the job done. What's Sam supposed to do? Tell Andrea that everything he's doing is acceptable and not to worry about rebounds or anything else he's struggling with because that stuff will sort itself out naturally over time? Let's just play to his strengths (i.e. let him shoot all the time and only let him defend his own man with help on the angles from behind and coming on the double).

If getting Bargnani to play well was a simple matter of changing approach with him then the Raptors would have done it already. They've clearly changed their approach ever so slightly on numerous occasions as it is. Blaming the coach who's been historically one of the best teachers of the game to young prospects in recent history seems pretty backwards to me. Particularly when all of the other players who failed under Sam were (eventually) universally agreed upon to have slow reaction times and have a lesser ability to understand the team basketball game in the NBA given the speed involved.

Edited to add:

Further to your point, Sun Tzu, if the Moon were clearly the reason why Bargnani was playing so poorly I think the Raptors would bench him incredibly quickly. They've already gone to great lengths to try and help Bargnani succeed. And it isn't like Bargnani somehow becomes a miracle rebounding machine when he's on the court with Kapono, who certainly can't be accused of stealing his rebounds and is actually very good at opening up rebounding position for others.

[5DOM]

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Its become rare to see Bargs get the ball at the top of the key after a pick and roll Jose is not looking to get him the ball there like he did last year.

its sad because with bosh in, bargs does not get any touches. jose is in love with bosh (and i cant blame him).

of course bosh is a much better player right now who we should look for every possession, but bargs can not improve this way.

thats why i like bargs coming off the bench and becoming the key offensive player. we know how good he is offensively.

[The_Hater]

Edited to add:

Further to your point, Sun Tzu, if the Moon were clearly the reason why Bargnani was playing so poorly I think the Raptors would bench him incredibly quickly. They've already gone to great lengths to try and help Bargnani succeed. And it isn't like Bargnani somehow becomes a miracle rebounding machine when he's on the court with Kapono, who certainly can't be accused of stealing his rebounds and is actually very good at opening up rebounding position for others.

Now that's funny!

[Harry Palmer]

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What about the oft-thrown around word potential? How much does that factor into your equation? (No sarcasm, genuinly interested)

That was largely the basis for my position, though. Most agreed Gay had the highest potential, but some felt there were obstacles that would get in his way, which I always thought were grossly overstated.

My essential reasoning went like this: Gay had the most potential. Given our needs and the requisite value for the position, LA and Bargs might be higher. When LA made it clear he had no interest in playing the 5, and Bargs showed he had no significant latent center game, it went back to basic potential, and Gay had the best AND happily fit a need.

But it was always, for me, making the best of a non-ideal situation. Just that Gay seemed to make the most sense both ways.

[emfive]

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I love how we've been getting killed on the boards since Bargs rejoined the starting rotation, yet now people are starting to place blame on our best and most aggressive rebounder for 'stealing' rebounds from his teammates. WTF?!!? He's actually being criticized for not being as weak and passive as his teammates and having a nose for the ball? Do people really want Moon to stop trying to grab every available rebound on the court? If he didn't steal them from a teammate, would that somehow improve our team rebounding? Not to mention that at least 3 times in the last 2 games, rebounds have hit Bargs right in the middle of both hands, with nobody around, and he still lost them.

If the people making these claims don't realize how utterly backwards this is... well.... I give up..........

I can surely understand your frustration with this sort of reasoning. If I were coaching and someone came to me with that observation I would give them my WTF look and tell them to sit down. Imagine what an NBA coach would do? If we could bottle Moon's attitude and inject it in the rest of the team there would be no worries.

Yet I am not sure that we can blame Bargs entirely for the inadequacies of late. The finger need not be pointed at the youngest player on the floor in any situation. If I thought he was the problem, he would not be out there. Do you not think a staff headed by Sam and BC would do the same? Sam faced the rebounding problem head on after the game yesterday. Let us see what is done.

[The_Hater]

My essential reasoning went like this: Gay had the most potential. Given our needs and the requisite value for the position, LA and Bargs might be higher. When LA made it clear he had no interest in playing the 5, and Bargs showed he had no significant latent center game, it went back to basic potential, and Gay had the best AND happily fit a need.

But it was always, for me, making the best of a non-ideal situation. Just that Gay seemed to make the most sense both ways.

For the entire year leading up to that draft, it was generally considered a Gay/Aldridge draft. Those were the top 2 prospects for 1st overall and those were the 2 with the most potential based on age and their performance as NCAA freshman. As the NCAA season went on, and especially the tournament (which ends up overrating a lot of draftable players based on a small sample), first Adam Morrison and then Ty Thomas jumped up as a possibilities for the top pick. And whle Bargs was always considered a top 4-7 guy, word didn't really circulate that he could go #1 until Toronto won the lottery.

So when you look at it, the teams talked themselves out of Aldridge (4th) and Gay (8th) for 3 late upstarts. And if we re did the draft today, Gay, Aldridge and Roy (in some order) would almost certainly be the first 3 picks.

Not sure what my point is here other than I guess teams should have gone with their first instincts.

[uniballer]

OK, back from my meeting, and I see that I'm being tagged - AGAIN - as a hater. This board never ceases to amaze. I understand dagger's temper tantrums; I've come to expect those every time I post something about Bargnani, but CC, you disappoint me.

Dude is about to become the worst rebounding center in the history of the NBA and this is not news!!!

I promise dagger that I will post a thread about Bargnani's 3-pt shooting in the next couple of days. Don't shoot the messenger if it doesn't turn out positive!

About to become worst rebounding center in history?? because his career is gonna end soon right..

[dagger]

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I don't see what this analysis changes. EVERYONE is getting to rebounds that Bargs should be pulling in. Their team, our team, guys in the front row. These aren't different issues - our guys not letting Bargs in on the action. Having Moon back off isn't the problem. And telling Bargs to be on the lookout for Moon, when the ball should be his, isn't the issue either.

And, frankly, I am not sure your account of one particular play is of much value either. Sure, when people screw up, it makes others look bad. But I would want to see more than an anecdotes before I thought that it was Moon's poor defence that was routinely making Bargs look bad (at least, more often that the opposite is true).

Now I didn't say that Moon's poor defence is making Bargnani look bad, now did I? I talked about one rebounding incident, and one play that Grange referred to where multiple mistakes were made. And yes, Bargnani should go after any rebound in his area, even if it means flattening Moon if he gets in the way.

[dagger]

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I can surely understand your frustration with this sort of reasoning. If I were coaching and someone came to me with that observation I would give them my WTF look and tell them to sit down. Imagine what an NBA coach would do? If we could bottle Moon's attitude and inject it in the rest of the team there would be no worries.

Yet I am not sure that we can blame Bargs entirely for the inadequacies of late. The finger need not be pointed at the youngest player on the floor in any situation. If I thought he was the problem, he would not be out there. Do you not think a staff headed by Sam and BC would do the same? Sam faced the rebounding problem head on after the game yesterday. Let us see what is done.

The issue isn't Moon's aggressiveness. It's about Bargnani's acquiescence, which is directly related to how he approaches rebounding. If you want him to be more aggressive, he's got to claim some boards teammates are getting now. It's as simple as that. It could be Bosh or Delfino who he has to deal with, too.

Moon, however, does intrigue me on another level, unrelated to Bargnani. No person on the team seems to spark more overt reactions from his teammates and coaches, both good and bad. Last night, Sam was lighting into him all night for missed assignments. But the most intriguing thing, not discussed at all here, was when he missed a lead pass from Jose late in the third quarter on a break and Jose lit into him like I've never seen any Raptor rip a teammate since Bosh went postal on Bargnani in GSW early last season. Jose was furious, AP came over to Moon and said something calming/reassuring or instructive, and a minute later Jose came over to basically smooth things out. But it was a sight.

[The Notic]

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For the entire year leading up to that draft, it was generally considered a Gay/Aldridge draft. Those were the top 2 prospects for 1st overall and those were the 2 with the most potential based on age and their performance as NCAA freshman. As the NCAA season went on, and especially the tournament (which ends up overrating a lot of draftable players based on a small sample), first Adam Morrison and then Ty Thomas jumped up as a possibilities for the top pick. And whle Bargs was always considered a top 4-7 guy, word didn't really circulate that he could go #1 until Toronto won the lottery.

So when you look at it, the teams talked themselves out of Aldridge (4th) and Gay (8th) for 3 late upstarts. And if we re did the draft today, Gay, Aldridge and Roy (in some order) would almost certainly be the first 3 picks.

Not sure what my point is here other than I guess teams should have gone with their first instincts.

I don't like that outlook where you can marginalize the legitimacy of a pick by using the fact that early mock drafts did not have them being picked highly.

Having an excellent season is enough to warrant a selection. Would you fault the Jazz because they chose Deron after his wonderful tournament run (also excellent season) just because EVERY early mock draft had Chris Paul ahead of him?

Heck, the fact that you use Roy as a counter-example to the 'upstart' mentality is ironic. Roy's tournament play and excellent workouts IS what propelled him to the pick. Before his senior season, not many mock drafts had him as even a lottery pick.

[Harry Palmer]

The finger need not be pointed at the youngest player on the floor in any situation.

At some point, Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Derrick Coleman, Kwame Brown, Michael Olawakandi, and any other guy who we now see as representing the inherent whole of their problem were the youngest guys on their team, many of them much younger than Bargs.

So you think it would have helped them to not have them accountable? Were they less the problem with themselves then then they are now?

If Bargs were a fresh from HS teen ok, I could see the point to a degree. But he is into his second season as an NBA pro, his 4th or whatever as a pro in general, and is the same age as the guy who lead the Cavs to the Finals was last year, the same age as Hakeem was when he lead the Rockets to the Finals, the same age as T-Mac was when he lead the league in scoring, the same age as MJ was when he lead the league in scoring, the same age Vince Carter was when he was easily our best player, the same age as Damon was when he was ROY and team leader, the same age as Moses Malone was when he put up 20/15, a year older than Dwight Howard who is in the MVP discussion, a year older than Chris Paul who is in the MVP discussion, the same age as Kobe when he put up 29/6/5 on route to a championship, the same as as Shaq when he put up 30/12 en route to leading the Magic to the Finals, the same age as Dirk was when he put up 22/9 while leading the Mavs to the 4th best record in the NBA, and the same age as Chris Bosh was LAST YEAR.

In short: he's NOT that young by NBA standards.

[The_Hater]

About to become worst rebounding center in history?? because his career is gonna end soon right..

Boy, you really showed him up there. He's definitely got a few years left in his career so there's no way that somebody could make this claim without first knowing how he's going to rebound for the rest of his career. Good call.

Wait, couldn't it just be assumed that he obviously talking about Bargnani's career to date? Naw.....

[will]

Love the thread title

[emfive]

HP was not the only one that felt Aldridge (in spite of his wishes) or Gay would be better fits. Yet not all feel the need to continuously tout their position.

Yet we now seem compelled to defend BC's choice.

I post that without malace to HP or anyone else and with a certain undertanding of the difficulty in supporting BC's choice, at present.

I also get the feeling if I posted, "OK, Stop, You win", the threads would not stop.

Not that HP starts them. But he does like to finish them. And that is no insult, as no one has been more convincing than he has.

[Harry Palmer]

Would you fault the Jazz because they chose Deron after his wonderful tournament run (also excellent season) just because EVERY early mock draft had Chris Paul ahead of him?

Yes.

[emfive]

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Yes.

Yet in the long run, I would bet that many coaches would prefer to have Deron on the floor in a playoff game.

[The Notic]

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Yes.

lol. Shame the Jazz fans and the organization as a whole don't share your sentiment.

[Harry Palmer]

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Yet in the long run, I would bet that many coaches would prefer to have Deron on the floor in a playoff game.

I guess we'll see. IMO Paul is clearly better, always was, and only his being hurt last year while Deron played great (admitedly better than I thought he would be) in any way clouded the issue at all which is returning to normal with both healthy this year.