This is Why Sloan Kills Us

[ColdBlue]

-= original quote snipped =-



Or even "If Sloan had played Stockton more, we would have beaten Jordan and won the championship." Goes both ways.

It's not the same. Granted, speculating that Stock getting more minutes = championship is pretty weak, but at least it isn't dishonest.

Making up lies about Stock being injured during the finals is way worse.

The problem isn't with people presenting weak positions, but what really gets me is when they manipulate the truth to support them. That in itself is crossing the boundary of civility, and I don't let people get away with it.

[Malone Strong]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sorry I was writing my post when you posted this. According to you Stockton and Malone were not legendary, therefore Sloan never had a chance of winning a championship. He never had good legendary players.

How aren't they legendary? They completely DOMINATE factor #2, making the fact that they won no championships irrelevant. Malone is the #2 scorer of all-time and two time MVP and Stockton holds the record for assists and steals...not to mention they both will be remembered for being durable and tough on the court. Malone's elbows will surely never be forgotten.

Sloan doesnt compare because he has no personal accolades...not even ONE coach of the year. He'll just be remembered for blowing division title seasons in the first round of the playoffs and sitting his best player on the bench too long in the Finals.

[ColdBlue]

-= original quote snipped =-



There is a difference between fact supported by news articles from that period, compared with a persons opinion of what a player might of thought, if something different had happened 10 years ago.

This is what I'm talking about. Your little quote doesn't prove anything other than that you are trying to manipulate the truth with a pointless reference. Do you think people here are completely stupid?

I'll tell you what. I'm not going to pull out the guns on you, basically because you aren't worth the effort. There are pro Sloan guys here that have earned my respect and know the difference between a load of **** and a legitimate point. I'll save the battle for those guys... when it actually counts for something. You are nothing.

[loserX]

80% of NBA coaches, 60% of College Coaches (despite their usual crappiness in transferring to the pros), and 30% of the posters on this board could have won a championship with stockton and malone, and "legendary" Jerry Sloan won 0

I know you're exaggerating for effect, but this is still pretty ridiculous.

...However, I usually support Sloan. But the longer he stays in Utah the more I start to believe that its time for Jerry to go ride his John Deer and the Jazz to move on. I don't think I could ever get myself to call Jerry a bad coach a la some posters here, however I do believe that it's probably time for the Jazz to try something different.

This is closer to my own position. His grip on the team this year appears to be a lot more tenuous, and maybe his day has come and gone...but he has been a great coach. There are 20-some-odd teams in the league that wish they had a "moron" like him at some point the last couple of decades.

I certainly do not think he's a god, or infallible by ANY stretch of the imagination...even most pro-Sloan posters generally acknowledge his weaknesses. But I have seen posts on this board that blame him for everything from individual turnovers (completely preposterous) to the food on the plane. I've seen posts that imply that over the last 20 years

- everything bad that has happened has been because of Sloan
- everything good that has happened has been in spite of Sloan

Which is of course ridiculous. He is a good, overly-rigid, smart, too-stubborn, hard-working, cantankerous, talented, flawed NBA coach. He may no longer be the man for this team, but it's not nearly as black and white as some would like to think it is.

[loserX]

Sloan doesnt compare because he has no personal accolades...not even ONE coach of the year. He'll just be remembered for blowing division title seasons in the first round of the playoffs and sitting his best player on the bench too long in the Finals.

With all due respect, I very very very VERY much doubt that that's how he'll be remembered.

[sodapop]

-= original quote snipped =-



How aren't they legendary? They completely DOMINATE factor #2, making the fact that they won no championships irrelevant. Malone is the #2 scorer of all-time and two time MVP and Stockton holds the record for assists and steals...not to mention they both will be remembered for being durable and tough on the court. Malone's elbows will surely never be forgotten.

Sloan doesnt compare because he has no personal accolades...not even ONE coach of the year. He'll just be remembered for blowing division title seasons in the first round of the playoffs and sitting his best player on the bench too long in the Finals.

I see, Stockton and Malone get a pass because of their records, but a coach that never campaigns for COY and has these records

- fourth most wins all-time (1035-689)
- seventh best winning percentage (.600) in NBA history (500-win minimum)
- two NBA Finals appearances (1997 and 1998) and six division titles
- 16 consecutive winning seasons and eleven 50-win seasons
- 17 trips to the NBA Playoffs (16 w/ Utah: 1989-2003,

[ColdBlue]

-= original quote snipped =-



Wow, there is more drama in here than on a soap opera...

Here's how I see it. Yes, Sloan can be extremely frustrating at times. Not playing Deron his rookie year, all the drama between him and players, not making coaching adjustments... I was extremely frustrated when he didn't pull Booze against Portland when Booze play like piss.

That said, the good out weighs the bad, by far. The GSW were swept out of the first round in the 93'-94' season, they wouldn't play another play off game for 12 years... 12 YEARS!!

Other than your first line, I don't have a beef with you. JDub has addressed your points probably better than I could, so I won't say the same things over. Just don't start flinging BS and we will get along.

[sodapop]

-= original quote snipped =-

This is what I'm talking about. Your little quote doesn't prove anything other than that you are trying to manipulate the truth with a pointless reference. Do you think people here are completely stupid?

No, there are some smart people here. Your right though, using the teams physicians statement about a potential career ending injury (Hornacek-remember?) means nothing compared to someone 10 years later noticing that a player played 6 less minutes that year and uses it to discredit a coach.

Thanks for not pulling out the guns on me. I have to tell you I was really worried there for a minute.

[ColdBlue]

-= original quote snipped =-



No, there are some smart people here. Your right though, using the teams physicians statement about a potential career ending injury (Hornacek-remember?) means nothing compared to someone 10 years later noticing that a player played 6 less minutes that year and uses it to discredit a coach.

Thanks for not pulling out the guns on me. I have to tell you I was really worried there for a minute.

Maybe one day you will earn the right to feel the full force of my guns. For now, you should worry more about keeping the powder dry on your cap gun... it's misfiring. (There is a chance Stock will recover 100%, and there is a chance it's a permanent injury)

[Racer X]

-= original quote snipped =-



I didn't post the thread, you did.

Way to address any of my points at all.

[Tabasco]

People who say we would have won a championship with another coach because we had "2 of the best players ever at their positions" seem to forget who we were playing in the Finals.

Michael Jordan is arguably the greatest player EVER. Scotty Pippen is one of the best ever at his position. Phil Jackson could arguably be called the greatest coach ever. We're talking about a team that went 72-10 at one point.

I'm sorry but I don't care who was coaching the Jazz we weren't going to beat the Bulls.

At the same time I do believe that it's time for Sloan to retire. I just think his players aren't responding to his dictator-like ways. We have a ton of talent on this team and we're sitting just above .500. That tells me he's not getting the best from his players anymore.

I'll say this much, he will be VERY tough to replace and I think a lot of Sloan haters are going to be surprised when they realize just how good of a coach he was.

[sodapop]

-= original quote snipped =-



Way to address any of my points at all.

My caps lock was off so I didn't see them.

I answered all your questions in this thread except for being up Sloans ??? and I think that is more of an opinion and less fact.


Tabasco I liked your response. Very well thought out. I would like to add that players who don't play for their coach don't win championships. I think Sloan is looking at one more year. He wants to hand the team over to another coach when they are on a firm course upwards.

[gojazzgo]

I'm sorry but I don't care who was coaching the Jazz we weren't going to beat the Bulls.

.

I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do think with better in-game adjustments we could have beat the rockets the years they won the championships. Letting Smith and whoever else nail 3's repeatedly on us because we don't guard the 3 didn't really help any. I think we would have beat the knicks and whoever else the rockets beat out of the east.

[sodapop]

David Benoit lost that for us one year in Houston. It's really impossible to put the entire blame of a franchise on the coach. The players had a part, the front office had a big part in who they signed, the owner had a part in how much he was willing to spend. And Houston had a lot of talent. We fail many time to give the other team the credit they deserve and blame it on the coach or players instead.

The really funny part is that most coaches when talking about Sloan point out his in game coaching as his strong point. There is a reason he has the fourth best record in history, he never listens to message board coaches.

[JDubJazz]

People who say we would have won a championship with another coach because we had "2 of the best players ever at their positions" seem to forget who we were playing in the Finals.

If Jordan was the only obstacle, then Tabasco would have a good point, but what about the years we blew it against Houston while Jordan was out of the league, or how about the year after the Finals when we had the best record in the league and lost in the FIRST ROUND to Portland? In the playoffs, Jerry's teams have chronically underachieved. Last year was obviously the exception, because the Jazz got their dream matchup against Golden State.

[Six_Fore]

-= original quote snipped =-



If Jordan was the only obstacle, then Tabasco would have a good point, but what about the years we blew it against Houston while Jordan was out of the league, or how about the year after the Finals when we had the best record in the league and lost in the FIRST ROUND to Portland? In the playoffs, Jerry's teams have chronically underachieved. Last year was obviously the exception, because the Jazz got their dream matchup against Golden State.

I would love to bring the "we only lost because Jordan is too good" argument, but the Jazz screwed the pooch when we lost against Houston and I actually think they lost in the Second Round that year after the Finals, they beat Sac in the first round. Anyway, the argument just doesn't stand because the Jazz couldn't get it done those years. So I have to reluctantly agree with you here.

However, as much blame as Sloan takes, which he should shoulder most of it as he is the coach... where does responsibility of the players fall? It seems like fingers have been pointed at Sloan this entire thread, but none at Stockton or Malone. When do they have to take responsibility for actually getting it done on the floor? Sloan's system set them up for all those regular season wins and showed them the way to win big games, but they're the ones that had to step in and do it. They didn't.

These guys weren't getting creamed by Jordan and Bulls, they were close games. Can Jerry make Malone hold onto the ball with 20 seconds left in Game 6 of the 98' Finals? No, that's Malone's fault. A win in that game changes that entire series. I'm just saying somewhere along the way, the Zero Championship argument has to fall on the two Legends shoulders. It can't ALL be Sloan's fault.

[ColdBlue]

where does responsibility of the players fall?

I think the players are solely to blame, considering Sloan doesn't really coach during the game. How can you point the finger at Sloan when all he does is yell and make set subtitutions and call the same play over and over? He doesn't really do anything at all, so how can he be blamed!?!?

It's completely the players responsibility to grind out this set offense to perfection because all defenses know exactly what's coming at them, and have prepared to defend it. If the players don't execute to an extremely high level, we will lose, and it will always be their fault for falling short of victory. Haven't you guys heard Sloan saying this very thing for years?

Playoffs are even more critical for player perfection. Other teams have plenty of time to focus on stopping our simple constant offense, so our players are at a higher disadvantage compared to the regular season. Look at how poorly we do in the playoffs when teams can really develop a strategy to stop us. Our players just can't overcome that disadvantage! They suck!

Sloan really can't be blamed, because he really doesn't do anything that would deserve blame. The hall of fame players in Stockton and Malone are to blame because they were just not good enough to execute this offense to perfection. Those losers even had 10 years of practice and they STILL couldn't perfect it.

I blame Stockton and Malone.

[Six_Fore]

where does responsibility of the players fall?

Sloan really can't be blamed, because he really doesn't do anything that would deserve blame. The hall of fame players in Stockton and Malone are to blame because they were just not good enough to execute this offense to perfection. Those losers even had 10 years of practice and they STILL couldn't perfect it.

I blame Stockton and Malone.

Excellent manipulation of my point.

I'm not pushing blame off Sloan by any means. He could have done a lot better at in game adjustment (i.e. keeping Stockton on the floor), running a wider variety of plays, time outs, ect. He could have done all of that better. However, you can't tell me that Stockton and Malone didn't control a part of the game themselves.

How many times did the pick and roll get broken up, then it was up to Stockton to make that happen? How many possessions did Stockton have to be put in sole control of the offense due to defense of the other team, a blown assignment, whatever, Stockton was the chief out there? Countless times. Don't kid yourself into thinking these guys were drones out there and Sloan dictated every floor board they were allowed to step on. The coach and the players must share a responsibility in lack of performance. Sloan could have screamed less and coached more, this is true. But can we honestly say that Stockton and Malone didn't have chances to win important games and couldn't pull it off?

[kebutah]

The coach has the responsibility to put the players in a situation where they can succeed.

The players have the responsibility to execute.

[ColdBlue]

Sloan could have screamed less and coached more, this is true. But can we honestly say that Stockton and Malone didn't have chances to win important games and couldn't pull it off?

They had opportunities that they certainly failed on (Malone getting stripped by MJ is the poignant image in my mind right now), but what my tongue in cheek post was all about is that this system requires near perfect execution to work consistently.

We had 2 HOF players grinding this offense out for almost 2 decades, and they weren't good enough to win it all, and half the time they weren't good enough to even get out of the first round.

I'll admit, when this offense is running good, it's a pretty game to watch. The only problem is that many coaches can easily throw a wrench into the gears and make this offense crash and burn. We need a more dynamic system. Martyball doesn't win playoff games.