Paxson wants 30+ minutes a night for young guys?

[dougthonus]

Joe Smith is a solid offensive piece. If he were 10 years younger and this good then you'd expect quite a bit of improvement, and we would probably feel comfortable waiting.

If he was 5 years younger, and we thought "this is what he is" we'd probably be happy with him as a starting PF, but would need to make sure that we had another solid offensive piece to pair with him.

I do think this year, our issues revolve around 2 main points:
1) Our big 3 have been extremely disappointing as a group. This is definitely the biggest reason for our slow start and poor record.

2) Ben Wallace is done as an NBA player, and our young big men have not had the chance to step up and replace him (and may or may not be successful given that chance). This is the reason we haven't been able to overcome point #1, and the reason why even if our big 3 had played well and we were a good team we wouldn't be a real title contender.

[coldfish]

I do think this year, our issues revolve around 2 main points:
1) Our big 3 have been extremely disappointing as a group. This is definitely the biggest reason for our slow start and poor record.

The guy who is really mystifying is Kirk Hinrich. Gordon struggled early, but is now getting close to his overall averages for last year. Deng is down a little, but its not horrible.

TB#1 often discusses the "eye of the tiger" issue with the Bulls and the guy I see having lost it is Hirnich. He used to be good for a number of hustle plays or really frustrating defense on a top opposing player. Now, you can sense him going back and forth between frustration and surrender over the course of many games.

Kirk has a sub 12 PER and has struggled defending both PG's and SG's this year. He is probably playing the worst basketball of his career and there is no easy explanation for why.

[tclg]

whatever his wife did to him. He cant seem to do anything right on the court consistently.

[bobsampson]

My opinion on the matter is that if we play Tyrus, Noah and Gray big minutes i think id be happy win or lose... i cant stand losing when Wallace plays 35 min, very boaring.. If i were pax id try to get a deal done for a big 2 guard who gets to the line or Gasol... Build around Deng, Tyrus and Noah... If were gonna suck this year lets suck bad and get a top 5 pick for a future superstar or trade( i love this years draft).. Kirk and Gordon can go... Get a real pg and a real 2... Id give this team about 2 weeks to see where its goin, if it aint good go with the youngs the rest of the way or make a trade... Either way somethin has to be done eventually... i know for sure id rather get a top pick then the 7th or 8th seed even thou its impossible for me to root against them... Oh yea, get a new coach to...
Beat Philly or more doom and gloom

[Cliff Levingston]

I don't think the roster needs a drastic overhaul. I think the club needs a roster touch up and the club needs a cultural overhaul.

Best point made in this thread, given all the people calling for nearly half the roster to be replaced.

Doug touched on it as well, but this was a roster thought by many to be capable of winning 50+ games and competing for the Eastern Conference crown. It just so happens that nearly all of our players have decided to play below par in somewhat of a perfect storm scenario for us this year.

There definitely needs to be a few roster changes here and there, not only now but before the season even started. However, we all know what the big problem is (coaching/schemes) and Pax took a step toward remedying it in firing Skiles.

Hopefully Pax can bring in a good coach in the offseason that will totally overhaul the way we play basketball on both sides of the floor, and ICLO, that'll make a big difference. From there, maybe we'll know what we have in Tyrus/Noah/Gray or Hinrich/Gordon/Thabo... etc.

[dougthonus]

The guy who is really mystifying is Kirk Hinrich. Gordon struggled early, but is now getting close to his overall averages for last year. Deng is down a little, but its not horrible.

TB#1 often discusses the "eye of the tiger" issue with the Bulls and the guy I see having lost it is Hirnich. He used to be good for a number of hustle plays or really frustrating defense on a top opposing player. Now, you can sense him going back and forth between frustration and surrender over the course of many games.

Kirk has a sub 12 PER and has struggled defending both PG's and SG's this year. He is probably playing the worst basketball of his career and there is no easy explanation for why.

Though Kirk is obviously the standout "he sucks" guy, especially in the clutch where he's shooting a mind bogglingly bad 9% from the field, I don't think the rest of our scorers are off the hook either.

TS% of our primary scorers 06/07 vs 07/08
Deng: 56% - 51%
Hinrich: 56% - 47%
Gordon 57% - 52%
Nocioni: 57% - 53%

Even though Deng and Gordon are still getting their points, their offensive efficiency is significantly down as both dropped 5%. Hinrich's drop of 9% is awful, but if Deng / Gordon were still up at 56% and 57% then I think we'd have probably won 3-4 more games at the very least. We'd be floating around .500, inside the playoff picture and just waiting for the ship to get righted.

[tclg]

I think the difficulty of getting easy shots increases when the point guard has troubles offensively on this team.Kirk isnt as agressive as he used to be and I think thats part of the problem

[molepharmer]

...There definitely needs to be a few roster changes here and there, not only now but before the season even started....

This I agree with. More importantly, they need somebody to step up and be a leader.

However, we all know what the big problem is (coaching/schemes) and Pax took a step toward remedying it in firing Skiles.

This I entirely disagree with. You probably would have to look pretty hard to find anybody who said before the season began that the Bulls could win the East if it wasn't for Skiles (coach/schemes).

The overwhelming difference between this year's team and last year's is the player's attitude - 'Eye of the tiger' stuff. There's a multitude of reasons why they've lost it.

To save the season, all they need to do is get it back. Changing coaches hasn't seemed to work. I'm hoping that an infusion of youthful energy will get it back; a few floor burns, a few more blocks, a few more dunks - something to light a spark.

[coldfish]

The guy who is really mystifying is Kirk Hinrich. Gordon struggled early, but is now getting close to his overall averages for last year. Deng is down a little, but its not horrible.

TB#1 often discusses the "eye of the tiger" issue with the Bulls and the guy I see having lost it is Hirnich. He used to be good for a number of hustle plays or really frustrating defense on a top opposing player. Now, you can sense him going back and forth between frustration and surrender over the course of many games.

Kirk has a sub 12 PER and has struggled defending both PG's and SG's this year. He is probably playing the worst basketball of his career and there is no easy explanation for why.

Though Kirk is obviously the standout "he sucks" guy, especially in the clutch where he's shooting a mind bogglingly bad 9% from the field, I don't think the rest of our scorers are off the hook either.

TS% of our primary scorers 06/07 vs 07/08
Deng: 56% - 51%
Hinrich: 56% - 47%
Gordon 57% - 52%
Nocioni: 57% - 53%

Even though Deng and Gordon are still getting their points, their offensive efficiency is significantly down as both dropped 5%. Hinrich's drop of 9% is awful, but if Deng / Gordon were still up at 56% and 57% then I think we'd have probably won 3-4 more games at the very least. We'd be floating around .500, inside the playoff picture and just waiting for the ship to get righted.

True, but I can's say that Gordon and Deng are appreciably worse on defense. Both have had bad games, but Hinrich's fall off on defense has been shocking. He was deservedly considered an elite defender last year. Now, I'm not even sure he is average at guarding either guard position.

So yes, I agree that both players are down, but Hinrich's overall impact on the game has gone through the floor. I am not meaning this as a bash Hinrich post, because he was a good player. Many people have taken the Bulls struggles to say that the players suck and always have. I would firmly argue that these guys were much better last year with Hinrich leading the pack as far as difference.

[bobsampson]

Can anyone give me an ansewer to why Thabo or even JamesOn cant start over Du-Du?? Even Garder would be lookin good right now

[coldfish]

-= original quote snipped =-

This I entirely disagree with. You probably would have to look pretty hard to find anybody who said before the season began that the Bulls could win the East if it wasn't for Skiles (coach/schemes).

Well, you don't have to look that hard. I was pretty optimistic about the team but have repeatedly said it was in spite of Skiles, not because of him.

The overwhelming difference between this year's team and last year's is the player's attitude - 'Eye of the tiger' stuff. There's a multitude of reasons why they've lost it.

I agree to a large extent. Look to my exchange with Doug.

That being said, there really is something different about the defense. Its tactical and its noticeable:
- PF/C's are not helping from the weak side. I said it a week ago and now we have a news report saying that the Bulls are working on it. The Bulls defense used to be based around interior help.
- Now the help comes from the perimeter, particularly on the strong side, which is leaving tons of shooters open. Guys like Hinrich never used to leave their man as much as they have this year. It used to only be Nocioni. Now, everyone seems to have the disease. Its not lack of effort, if anything its TOO much effort.
- The team isn't fronting post players. We always used to deny the post pass and force teams into rushed perimeter shots. Now, the Bulls allow the post pass, then double. This is a huge difference.

To save the season, all they need to do is get it back. Changing coaches hasn't seemed to work. I'm hoping that an infusion of youthful energy will get it back; a few floor burns, a few more blocks, a few more dunks - something to light a spark.

I think some young energy would help, but if they do stupid things its hard to expect good results.

[Cliff Levingston]

This I entirely disagree with. You probably would have to look pretty hard to find anybody who said before the season began that the Bulls could win the East if it wasn't for Skiles (coach/schemes).

Not really. coldfish and Cliff Levingston were at least a couple people grumbling about the schemes we run on both sides of the ball, not to mention a lot of people rumbling about the substitution patterns.

The overwhelming difference between this year's team and last year's is the player's attitude - 'Eye of the tiger' stuff. There's a multitude of reasons why they've lost it.

Agreed, but that doesn't absolve the coaching/schemes.

To save the season, all they need to do is get it back. Changing coaches hasn't seemed to work. I'm hoping that an infusion of youthful energy will get it back; a few floor burns, a few more blocks, a few more dunks - something to light a spark.

Changing coaches has definitely helped. Ben Wallace is playing with passion (for the most part) as opposed to being completely indifferent almost every game. Gordon is rejuvenated as well. It hasn't been a magic bullet but it's helped for sure, at least offensively.

[gnk2727]

Seeing all the flaws on our team and the options the posters have shown here leads me to believe the following:

1. If Tyrus could develop his game ala Joe Smith with his athleticism we would be just fine at PF. However, TT needs the court time to develop this cause he aint gonna do it in practice.

2. Someone or a combination of a few of the players in this group needs to be consolidated: Ben Wallace, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Viktor Khryapa, Chris Duhon, Andres Nocioni. We need either a Big SG that has ball handling capabilities to pair next to Ben Gordon or a pure PG that can distribute the ball to the shooters that we have on this team as well as the ability to drive and dish to our big men that can score i.e. Noah, Gray, Smith, TT.

SO in the end the Bulls have 2 choices: get killed in a trade to dump off Wallace and get a pick and a serviceable young low contract player back in or dump him off and take what they can get.

The longer they play 4 on 5 on offense the more the problem is gonna swell. Wallace no longer goes up with authority (he tries fancy layups that he cant make) and running the pick and roll with him is just plain dumb. I guess the only way you could run a pick and roll with him is up high with a double screen to bring the opposing teams center out of the paint, but then the guard would have to drive to the bucket with the lane open which they dont do or dont do well.

Anyway you look at it its a bad situation. The Bulls have the opportunity to right this situation. But that means we have to see 30 mpg from Noah, Tyrus and maybe even Thabo. Worst case scenario there is that they fail horribly which wouldnt be too bad since we would get a very nice draft pick in a loaded draft.

Best case scenario is that TT, Noah, and Thabo all outperform their older counterparts and we end up making the playoffs and bowing out early.


But at least then Paxson would know exactly what he has. Not some guess or "potential".

[molepharmer]

This I entirely disagree with. You probably would have to look pretty hard to find anybody who said before the season began that the Bulls could win the East if it wasn't for Skiles (coach/schemes).

Not really. coldfish and Cliff Levingston were at least a couple people grumbling about the schemes we run on both sides of the ball, not to mention a lot of people rumbling about the substitution patterns.

Your original statement included "we all know...", that's is what I take exception too.

Before the year many posters had problems with the coach/schemes but many of the same posters felt the Bulls would compete for the Eastern title, despite these issues. So, it would seem that many didn't feel the schemes and Skiles were holding the Bulls back from being a very good team. Now that one of things holding back the team is gone (Skiles), many are suggesting to get rid of the schemes

[tclg]

I think the problem is that the schemes became so predictable that the offense has stagnated because everyone knows how to stop it. Most good defensive teams call out the bulls plays before we do.

[theagent]

Awesome news! Top 5 pick here we come...

[Marv Albert voice] YES!!!!!!!!!!!

cloaked tanking......good stuff

[Neusch23]

I think the people wanting the Bulls to tank and / or expecting losses in regards to playing the young people will be sorely disappointed when they get to see the results of 30mpg of Noah.

Again, I have to put a spin on this, because in theory I agree, but at the heart of this I strongly disagree.

If we play Tyrus and Noah 30 min a night, and play our current system, we will lose, lose, lose. I really don't know if we would be good enough to over come their mistakes to win 25 games this year.

You are killing me Jay. I specifically said Noah. My post was about Noah. Noah, Noah, Noah, Noah, Noah.

If you want to argue the effectiveness and ability to execute the schemes between Noah and Wallace, I'm your huckleberry.

Let's start with this: Part of the current "system" is for players to make open layups and at least attempt high percentage shots when left one on one within 5 feet of the hoop with the ball. Who is going to do that better?

Or does it not matter if the ball goes in the hoop as long as the guy is in the right place?

I suspect that he was supposed to be fronting on defense Curry on Tuesday, but I don't have proof. The Bulls used to front post players. The team denied entry passes and forced tough jump shots. It was reported that Wallace didn't like fronting last December. Now, we allow the entry pass then double down and free up shooters. Think about that. Wallace's lack execution of the scheme may be the keystone for the defense's problems this year.

The end result is that Wallace makes a ton of mistakes. The other guy who would likely lose minutes is Nocioni at the 4 spot, who also is a scheme ruining wrecking ball. As I watch the games, he breaks out of the offense and defense more than the young guys.

Your assertion is based on the impression that the young guys would make so many mistakes, it would overwhelm their positives to make the team worse. What I see is that the guys most likely to lose minutes make a ton of mistakes too.

And my post was a combination of your post and the original thread.

If Pax is talking about wanting to see 30 min a night from Tyrus and Noah, and he is coming out publically stating such, then he also believes we are throwing in the towel.

I have to believe that if we were playing good ball, that we wouldn't have to listen to our GM state opinions on matters that he shouldn't be commenting on. He is the GM. His Job is to find the players, find the coach, not micro manage the team. This is why I am not a fan a Jerry Jones, MR. Micro manager himself. Hire the right people and let the people with expirence do their thing.

Right now we have a green coach. A team full of players, and I believe no one with a game plan on how to use them because this roster is like a puzzle missing pieces.

We need to make some moves, and one should be to get the youth in there, and we need to stop winning games. Getting Tyrus and Noah in the the game will cause us to loose more games UNLESS we change our system around to use them better.

[tclg]

well we have recently started throwing more alley oops to tyrus. Little things like this can be added gradually to the system.

[coldfish]

-= original quote snipped =-

We need to make some moves, and one should be to get the youth in there, and we need to stop winning games. Getting Tyrus and Noah in the the game will cause us to loose more games UNLESS we change our system around to use them better.

Well, that's your opinion and its not really based in the statistical evidence to date. The Bulls are on a 32 win pace, which is pretty bad. It would be hard to be worse than that having them surrounded with Kirk, Ben and Luol.

Beyond that, to date this season, the team is better off with them on the floor than on the bench.

It is my opinion that if Ben Wallace lost all of his minutes this season, past and future, to Noah, the Bulls would win more than 32 games over this season.

Why? Because Noah makes less mistakes. A LOT less mistakes. Beyond that, the offense and defense schemes are better suited to Noah than Wallace.

Tyrus is in a different boat in that most of his minutes would come from Joe Smith, who is a much better player (than Wallace) and fits the Bulls needs well. I can't honestly say that exchanging Smith for Tyrus right now would help the team.

[SensiBull]

Man, if we thought the 2000 Free Agent debacle was a black mark against the franchise, wait until Gordon and Deng join the "no comment" chorus against playing in Chicago currently led by Jamal, Eddy, Tyson. In fact, could you imagine a starting five of Gordon, Jamal, Deng, Tyson and Eddy?

We're leaking like a sieve.