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Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

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Post#341 » by Fortinos2008 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:27 pm

I think you all lack understanding of pro basketball and development and certainly have no idea on how to manage an NBA team.

I leave it all in the hands of BC and I still fully expect Bargnani to develop into great player. Basically what the original poster did was use last years rebounding numbers combined with this years rebounding numbers and comapred them to past bigs in this league. You seem to forget that Bargnani never played center last year and spent most of his time playing the 3-4. Further more the people that are loving all this lately are completely disreagrding the fact that this kid was injured basically the entire month of December and that in affect was a major reasoning for his poor play. Prior to injury as a starter I believe he was averaging 14-6 at the 5 and that is hardly bad for a second year player who has just begun to play a new position at the young age of 21.

Last I dont know what ya'll are trying to prove here or accomplish. Everytime I open up this board I see a 30 page Bargnani discussion usually fueled by the same people. Must this be done everyday? What is your purpose in repeating your positions? Are you trying to make other fans hate this kid as much as you do? Do you think what you say is going to improve Bargnani's game? Are you trying to prove your point was right all along based on playing a new positon through 30 games as a 21 year old?

What is the purpose of these wild discussions led by the same people almost daily? I really have a hard time understand how people can wake up in the morning and their main goal is to find negative articles, negative stats and making up a bunch of nonsense for what seems like no reason at all.

We all know he is not a great rebounder maybe not even good at this paticular time but the potential is there and just like so many other players in the past Bargnani can achieve what he wants to achieve. Its up to Bargnani because he has the skill, its personally you have to be one hell of an idiot to believe what you see from a second year player at 21 years old is what your always going to see.

Alot of you have some serious issues
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Post#342 » by raptorscam » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:29 pm

SomewhatDamaged wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Except for the fact that detroit was just coming off of a championship, or were at least a champioship calibre/elite team. We aren't.


which is a point I think I addressed.

If Toronto had fallen to the #5 pick that year (they were lucky to get the 1) and grabbed Bargnani this wouldn't be nearly as controversial for people and the doomsaying would be much less. Granted, it looks much worse on the GM that a #1 doesn't pan out than a #5, BUT, I really don't think people would be spending as much time pointing to the Bargnani selection as a reason to discount the team's prospects going forward if they took him later.

That may seem like questionable logic but at the end of the day if Bargnani fails as a #1 it reflects very badly on BC but it can not be pointed to as the sole reason the team succeeds or fails. Many good teams have made bad or unlucky picks, you don't want it to happen but it doesn't seal your fate. I think its lazy to keep pulling this same point up as the reason to bash the team when it is at worst a missed opportunity but not a franchise-derailing mistake
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Post#343 » by The_Hater » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:39 pm

komodo19 wrote:Next summer will be very interesting. With our expiring contracts, 1st rounder, and maybe a young player.. we could land a very good player. In two years, I think we are going to see a radically different team.


I'm with you 100% on this. I never believed for a second that BC ever saw this as the base of a championship team. It's been a team in transition the past 2 seasons, and that transition has been very positive on a number of levels so far but there's still a lot of work to be done to get to the next level.
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Post#344 » by The_Hater » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:42 pm

Fortinos2008 wrote:I think you all lack understanding of pro basketball and development and certainly have no idea on how to manage an NBA team.

...

Alot of you have some serious issues


We all bow down to your superior intellect. Obviously you're the smartest guy on this board and all differing opinions are invalid.
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Post#345 » by Econgrad » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:47 pm

The biggest fault in the management's plan was and is that they want Bargnani to learn a new position but have failed to make any investment in a big man coach, and have a head coach who has only ever 'positively developed' one draft pick.
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Post#346 » by Fortinos2008 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:52 pm

The_Hater wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I'm with you 100% on this. I never believed for a second that BC ever saw this as the base of a championship team. It's been a team in transition the past 2 seasons, and that transition has been very positive on a number of levels so far but there's still a lot of work to be done to get to the next level.


I agree with you 100% as well, when BC got here and put this team together and drafted Bargs it was not with intention of winning now. Infact BC was as shocked as anyone by the fast turn around as his plan and vision was always to develop the youth and look towards the upcoming cap space as the time to add the key pieces to make a run as the youth were reaching their full development. Part of the surprising success has put a wrench in some of the plans along the way because with winning comes expectations and with expectations comes impatient fans, veteran teammates. So while BC came here to develop youth, within a years timem he is finding it hard to develop all that youth while continuing to keep everyone happy.

Its a fine line and one hell of a hard job to do but so far BC and the coaching staff is doing their best to stick to the plan, develop, win and look for the future cap space to put us over the top. Its easy to sit on a message board and disect players, say trade this guy, sign that guy and play GM but none on this board, me included could ever do what BC does with such discipline and success.

We need to thank BC what he has brought us even though its a surprise to us and him and more importantly we need to thank him for not caving to pressure, stopping the development of young players and ruining our future cap space by running out and signing or trading for a quick fix with a monster contract.

The plan is still intact and the right man leading the way.
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Post#347 » by dacrusha » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:56 pm

Econgrad wrote:The biggest fault in the management's plan was and is that they want Bargnani to learn a new position but have failed to make any investment in a big man coach, and have a head coach who has only ever 'positively developed' one draft pick.



Under Sam:
- Chris Bosh has turned into an all-star.
- Jose has turned into a very good PG.
- Charlie V will never have a better season than his rookie season.
- Joey G. is probably as good as he'll ever get... but he wasn't much in the first place, so no big deal.

- Hoffa is the only real failure, but blaming Sam for him not being "positively developed" is ridiculous; future hall-of-famer Jerry Sloan couldn't even get the big meathead to do anything positive.
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Post#348 » by Fortinos2008 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm

The_Hater wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



We all bow down to your superior intellect. Obviously you're the smartest guy on this board and all differing opinions are invalid.


Sometimes when typing messages on these boards words get mixed in and you dont even relize it. I apologize for that comment but it was born after reading this idiotic filled discussion which is housing the very same people that start the same discussions almost daily and turn them into 300 page nightmares that end with fans questioning their own faith because a bunch of noobs who pretend to know all and think they are realgm's preach the sad song of the end of times for teams, players and in this paticular case a 21 year old second player. These same people drool all over other players from the same draft many of which all have serious holes in their games as well but are never mentioned because they are putting up points and gay on the grizz putting up points on a really bad team while playing sub par defence.

The fact these people used an injury plagued month to make their leap into the never ending burning pit of agenda filled hatred says alot about the character and knowledge of these people.
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Post#349 » by saham » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:01 pm

In my opinion Bargnani needs a big man coach who can teach him how to rebound the ball, how to out-hustle the other guy to get the rebound and better positioning yourself for the rebound. Also, he needs to develop his upper body to out-muscle the other guy to fight for the rebound.

I can't understand why Mr. Colangelo has not hired a big man coach for Bargnani's development yet. If you look at the Lakers, they hired Jabbar mainly to develop Bynum and you can see how that kid has improved his game. My understanding is that Colangelo see's bargnani as a non-traditional centre and that is why he is hesitant to get a big man coach to develop him. But in order to teach Bargnani how to rebound, they need to get him a coach who can put these things through his head and teach him all these skills to become an efficient centre in the NBA.
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Post#350 » by Fortinos2008 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:07 pm

dacrusha wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




Under Sam:
- Chris Bosh has turned into an all-star.
- Jose has turned into a very good PG.
- Charlie V will never have a better season than his rookie season.
- Joey G. is probably as good as he'll ever get... but he wasn't much in the first place, so no big deal.

- Hoffa is the only real failure, but blaming Sam for him not being "positively developed" is ridiculous; future hall-of-famer Jerry Sloan couldn't even get the big meathead to do anything positive.


Jose turned into a very good PG not only because of Sam but because of years of development, playing in world class tournies, olympics and top teams over sea's.

Jose is just another example of a player who needed years of development before he relized his full potential as a player and person. Jose is a perfect example of what can happen with a player like Bargnani if you stay patient, although I fully expect Bargnani to get it alot faster than Jose did because the skill is already much higher than Jose's was as a pg back when he was 21.

Bargnani is a highly skilled player with loads of potential but he is going to have ups and downs along the way and as fans you need to understand this and you also have to understand that BC did not put together this team to win now and was not expecting Bargnani to become an all star in year two. Infact BC had and continues to have visions of allowing his youth to develop while targetting 2009 as the year to add the final pieces to the hopefully fully developed youth.

Your all gonna have to deal with the ups and downs because Bargnani is here to stay so if you cannot accept this or cannot bare it I suggest certain fans on this board find a new team to cheer for because this is the plan and they stickin to it.
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Post#351 » by RapsVC15 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:12 pm

saham wrote:In my opinion Bargnani needs a big man coach who can teach him how to rebound the ball, how to out-hustle the other guy to get the rebound and better positioning yourself for the rebound. Also, he needs to develop his upper body to out-muscle the other guy to fight for the rebound.

I can't understand why Mr. Colangelo has not hired a big man coach for Bargnani's development yet. If you look at the Lakers, they hired Jabbar mainly to develop Bynum and you can see how that kid has improved his game. My understanding is that Colangelo see's bargnani as a non-traditional centre and that is why he is hesitant to get a big man coach to develop him. But in order to teach Bargnani how to rebound, they need to get him a coach who can put these things through his head and teach him all these skills to become an efficient centre in the NBA.


Agreed.

You can't expect a player who's played his entire career on the perimeter to all of a sudden come into the nba and start grabbing 10 boards per while learning arguably the most demanding position in professional sports. LA figured Bynum would have been overwhelmed and got him quite possibly one of the greatest players (and rebounders) this game has ever seen. Who does Andrea have to teach him the ropes? ..Bosh? ..Smitch? ..English? Get him a big coach that'll stay in his grill much like Jabbar has done with Bynum. Every Laker game I watch, Jabbar and Bynum are in constant conversations throughout the game.
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Post#352 » by The Notic » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:17 pm

[quote="dacrusha"][/quote]

add Mike James 20 ppg season to that list
Matt Bonner having a respectable rookie season
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Post#353 » by reck0n3r » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:18 pm

raptorscam wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



which is a point I think I addressed.

If Toronto had fallen to the #5 pick that year (they were lucky to get the 1) and grabbed Bargnani this wouldn't be nearly as controversial for people and the doomsaying would be much less. Granted, it looks much worse on the GM that a #1 doesn't pan out than a #5, BUT, I really don't think people would be spending as much time pointing to the Bargnani selection as a reason to discount the team's prospects going forward if they took him later.

That may seem like questionable logic but at the end of the day if Bargnani fails as a #1 it reflects very badly on BC but it can not be pointed to as the sole reason the team succeeds or fails. Many good teams have made bad or unlucky picks, you don't want it to happen but it doesn't seal your fate. I think its lazy to keep pulling this same point up as the reason to bash the team when it is at worst a missed opportunity but not a franchise-derailing mistake


Yeah I pretty much agree. If bargs doesn't pan out, it does make BC look pretty bad, though we can't blame the teams shortcomings on this one draft choice. An apt example from this season would be Portland, they're doing just fine without their expected game changing centre. Our team just doesn't have any cojones.
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Post#354 » by gangstaff » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:19 pm

TJ11 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Agreed.

You can't expect a player who's played his entire career on the perimeter to all of a sudden come into the nba and start grabbing 10 boards per while learning arguably the most demanding position in professional sports. LA figured Bynum would have been overwhelmed and got him quite possibly one of the greatest players (and rebounders) this game has ever seen. Who does Andrea have to teach him the ropes? ..Bosh? ..Smitch? ..English? Get him a big coach that'll stay in his grill much like Jabbar has done with Bynum. Every Laker game I watch, Jabbar and Bynum are in constant conversations throughout the game.


NFL QB by far. NHL Goalie next. Maybe C/PG after that.

But yes, a big man coach is needed. But would Andrea listen? Would he try to change his attitude and his game (somewhat)? I can't get a bead on Andrea's attitude because his demeanor never changes.
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Post#355 » by Fortinos2008 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:20 pm

saham wrote:In my opinion Bargnani needs a big man coach who can teach him how to rebound the ball, how to out-hustle the other guy to get the rebound and better positioning yourself for the rebound. Also, he needs to develop his upper body to out-muscle the other guy to fight for the rebound.

I can't understand why Mr. Colangelo has not hired a big man coach for Bargnani's development yet. If you look at the Lakers, they hired Jabbar mainly to develop Bynum and you can see how that kid has improved his game. My understanding is that Colangelo see's bargnani as a non-traditional centre and that is why he is hesitant to get a big man coach to develop him. But in order to teach Bargnani how to rebound, they need to get him a coach who can put these things through his head and teach him all these skills to become an efficient centre in the NBA.


Im not positive but I believe Jabbar was either hired by Bynum or Jabbar came forward on his own to help Bynum not the Lakers going out to hire him. As I recall Jackson was quite irked when Jabbar started working with him, probably had to do a little with Jacksons ego and believing he didnt need the help.
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Post#356 » by Prop » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:39 pm

Raps4evr wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



These so called "agenda-driven" posters are posters who regardless of what whether the team wins or not, they will target a specific player and rip a certain weakness that we all know, EVEN if that player played "out of this world". That's ludicrous, and I don't understand the logic in that... the only word that comes to mind is haters.


what about the people who continuously make excuses for player's shortcomings, no matter what the situation, are they considered "agenda-driven" as well?

i just think it's silly as hell to even start labelling people like that. everyone picks a side and then the 2 sides discuss/argue stuff, usually to no end because 95% of people already have their minds made up. that's life. no need to act like this is some strange raptor board phenomenon.

agenda-driven because they don't like a player...lol. what goal are they trying to realize by saying bargs sucks at rebounding over and over?
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Post#357 » by The_Hater » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:41 pm

dacrusha wrote:Under Sam:
- Chris Bosh has turned into an all-star.
- Jose has turned into a very good PG.
- Charlie V will never have a better season than his rookie season.
- Joey G. is probably as good as he'll ever get... but he wasn't much in the first place, so no big deal.


TJ has also shown huge improvement since his Milwaukee days. Hump went from scrub in Utah to a valuable young rotation guy. Jamario Moon anyone? Matt Bonner became pretty solid as a 2nd rounder. I think that Charlie was 2nd in the ROY and has clearly regressed since he left. Delfino is better than he was in Detroit and looks like a keeper.

Yet somehow, some people still argue that Sam doesn't have a positive influence on young talent. O..K..
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Post#358 » by bargs » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:49 pm

komodo19 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



While BC did state Bargnani was a project, there was no mention of a 4-5 year waiting period for him to develop. That statement is recent.


lol.. :D ..yea, but man, it was clear that our pick was a "long term project" , that's all, we all need to sit and wait for his (andrea) developing.

anyway without a good coaching stuff i see much more difficult the way into an all star for bargnani ...i will be impressed if he'll becomes an average player :roll:
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Post#359 » by RapsVC15 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:54 pm

The_Hater wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



TJ has also shown huge improvement since his Milwaukee days. Hump went from scrub in Utah to a valuable young rotation guy. Jamario Moon anyone? Matt Bonner became pretty solid as a 2nd rounder. I think that Charlie was 2nd in the ROY and has clearly regressed since he left. Delfino is better than he was in Detroit and looks like a keeper.

Yet somehow, some people still argue that Sam doesn't have a positive influence on young talent. O..K..


Your exaggerating somewhat. Delfino has shown that he's pretty much the same guy as he was in Detroit outside a couple games here and there and Hump's been a valuable rotation guy for about a month and has pretty much come back down to earth. Overall, I'd agree on your premise though. Sam's an above average coach when it comes to young talent development.
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Post#360 » by bargs » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:56 pm

Yosemite Dan wrote:It's a stretch not to think that Gheridini, , couldn't resist playing up Bargs' big time and putting Italy on the NBA map by making him the #1 pick and getting the best of both worlds.


no no no...ok about the fact that maurizio is closer to bargnani than colangelo and his staff, ok considering the NT issue...

but, man, GHERARDINI:

1) isn't a stupid man, he's able to recognize the "Talent"

2) maurizio with "that" choice puts a sword over his head ...i mean, he was at the first appearance in the nba as assistant general manager, he made a choice selecting andrea, gherardini's future is strictly chained with the andrea's one...

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