Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

[The_Hater]

In my opinion Bargnani needs a big man coach who can teach him how to rebound the ball, how to out-hustle the other guy to get the rebound and better positioning yourself for the rebound. Also, he needs to develop his upper body to out-muscle the other guy to fight for the rebound.

I can't understand why Mr. Colangelo has not hired a big man coach for Bargnani's development yet. If you look at the Lakers, they hired Jabbar mainly to develop Bynum and you can see how that kid has improved his game. My understanding is that Colangelo see's bargnani as a non-traditional centre and that is why he is hesitant to get a big man coach to develop him. But in order to teach Bargnani how to rebound, they need to get him a coach who can put these things through his head and teach him all these skills to become an efficient centre in the NBA.

Alex English was the the big man coach over in Philly who was responsible for developing late 1st round pick Sam Dalembert. Considering Dalembert had career college averages of 6 and 6 and is now a double/double guy among the league leaders in both blocks and boards, I think that English appears to have a little bit of knowledge in this department.

[Fortinos2008]

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what about the people who continuously make excuses for player's shortcomings, no matter what the situation, are they considered "agenda-driven" as well?

i just think it's silly as hell to even start labelling people like that. everyone picks a side and then the 2 sides discuss/argue stuff, usually to no end because 95% of people already have their minds made up. that's life. no need to act like this is some strange raptor board phenomenon.

agenda-driven because they don't like a player...lol. what goal are they trying to realize by saying bargs sucks at rebounding over and over?

They are trying to hypnotize you with specially chosen agenda driven stats and then as you drift a sleep and begin to hate the players and this team as much as they do they will command you follow them around like groupies marching down young street protesting Bargnani as raptor center and demanding they become the next raptor gm.

I just waiting to see Supersub and Harry with their hypnotized groupies marching downtown Toronto with a fire BC, trade Bargnani, Give Humphries the starting center spot signs to go along with a petition board asking people walking by to sign if they agree, like we seen in New York for Isiah. I fully expect it to occur during the Raptors second round playoff appearance this season.

[The_Hater]

I just waiting to see Supersub and Harry with their hypnotized groupies marching downtown Toronto with a fire BC, trade Bargnani, Give Humphries the starting center spot signs to go along with a petition board asking people walking by to sign if they agree, like we seen in New York for Isiah. I fully expect it to occur during the Raptors second round playoff appearance this season.

Look everybody, a brand new poster who just joined realgm today!

[Fortinos2008]

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TJ has also shown huge improvement since his Milwaukee days. Hump went from scrub in Utah to a valuable young rotation guy. Jamario Moon anyone? Matt Bonner became pretty solid as a 2nd rounder. I think that Charlie was 2nd in the ROY and has clearly regressed since he left. Delfino is better than he was in Detroit and looks like a keeper.

Yet somehow, some people still argue that Sam doesn't have a positive influence on young talent. O..K..

I wouldnt really lay TJ's development all on Sam either though, he was a special player in college, a special player with the Bucks as well and prior to injury and even after injury he was expected to develop into a fine NBA player. TJ Ford's progression as a player is natural for his skill set and just another example of what can happen to players with skill who are given the time and opportunity to develop. Experience, court time, player skill, repetition, work ethic and drive are all things that helped TJ get to where he is as an improved player.

[AfricanSensation]

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Look everybody, a brand new poster who just joined realgm today!

[whysoserious]

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Look everybody, a brand new poster who just joined realgm today!

I almost feel lik Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.

The same user just keeps coming back.

[RapsVC15]

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Alex English was the the big man coach over in Philly who was responsible for developing late 1st round pick Sam Dalembert. Considering Dalembert had career college averages of 6 and 6 and is now a double/double guy among the league leaders in both blocks and boards, I think that English appears to have a little bit of knowledge in this department.

Alex English a big man coach? Now that's a new one. Just curious you have a link or anything that has any information on Dalembert's and English's relationship?

[AfricanSensation]

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Alex English was the the big man coach over in Philly who was responsible for developing late 1st round pick Sam Dalembert. Considering Dalembert had career college averages of 6 and 6 and is now a double/double guy among the league leaders in both blocks and boards, I think that English appears to have a little bit of knowledge in this department.

Quoted to make sure that the <all Brags need is a big man coach> crew read this.

Dalembert himself credited English for turning him into a double-double guy. In English last year Daly had his breakout year and got a 60 million deal out of it!

[The_Hater]

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Alex English a big man coach? Now that's a new one. Just curious you have a link or anything that has any information on Dalembert's and English's relationship?

It's actually pretty common knowledge.

And I'm sure that your 'google' works just as well as mine. Happy hunting.

[mwaschkowski]

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Look everybody, a brand new poster who just joined realgm today!

Haha, owned!

[AfricanSensation]

From Doug Smith blog last week:

You can

[vulture]

Contender is great. Keep hope alive my brother.

[RapsVC15]

From Doug Smith blog last week:

You can

[The_Hater]

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Thanks for the link.

Odd that we have English who's a career 6'7 2/3 guy and wouldn't automatically pop into your head as the type to play the role of 'big man coach'.

I would imagine that any 6'8" player ends up playing inside a ton in both high-school and college. English was also a well rounded, high volume scorer who was extremely slippery/crafty inside like an Antawn Jamison. He wasn't a long range bomber.

Also remember the the man widely considered the best 'big man' coach in the world, Pete Newell, didnt' play a single minute in the NBA.

Obviously how well you did something yourself doesn't necessarily correlate to one's ability to teach it to others.

[roy_jones_calderon]

It seems like the question of whether the Raps made a mistake in trying to get Bargs to do 'big man' type things is one of the lingering questions.

I don't think it was a mistake at all. It's a long-term process that didn't start this season. I disagree that he's being misused, and don't wish for a return to a more perimeter oriented game that he may have got away with last year based on our team chemistry.

It's all on Bargs to do what he's been told to do. Some of this big man coach stuff is a little naive. These guys are saturated with an expert level of feedback about this stuff from a very early age, and Bargs doesn't strike me as a dumb guy.

I think Bargs would be the first to agree that he needs to rebound the basketball. That's not the issue, it's what happens on the floor that is significant, and Bargs would agree with that too.

I'm glad that he's going to be under this type of pressure to improve his rebounding ability. This is our #1 pick.

[The_Hater]

I'm glad that he's going to be under this type of pressure to improve his rebounding ability. This is our #1 pick.

I agree. A lot of people have the impression that young players are all fragile and need to be coddled and judging by the posts, many posters feel that way about Bargs.

But young players need to be told in no uncertain terms what is and is not acceptable practice. If Bargs doesn't learn now while he's young that he needs to both play hard at all times and hit the boards, his habits won't just suddenly change over time. And if the coaching staff, management and his teammates need to apply more pressure to get this guy turned on, then that's what needs to be done. Immediately.

[saham]

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I would imagine that any 6'8" player ends up playing inside a ton in both high-school and college. English was also a well rounded, high volume scorer who was extremely slippery/crafty inside like an Antawn Jamison. He wasn't a long range bomber.

Also remember the the man widely considered the best 'big man' coach in the world, Pete Newell, didnt' play a single minute in the NBA.

Obviously how well you did something yourself doesn't necessarily correlate to one's ability to teach it to others.

I know what you are saying there. But our plan A (Alex English) is not working so far, thus we need to launch a plan B (i.e hire a big man coach for bargnani only). A lot of people just do not realize that Colangelo knew that Bargnani could not rebound when he drafted him. He drafted Bargnani not for now but for future. Also, from my observation there are more than one reasons that Bargnani does not get rebounds.

- Staying on the perimeter (No offensive rebounds)
- He usually tips the ball to other players (which does not count as a rebound)
- When it comes to defensive rebounds, he let other Raptors around him have them even though he could easily get them.

Now i am not advocating that Bargnani is a good rebounder, his rebounding is weak but to bash him and calling him a bust is totally rudiculous. I do not mind if we barely make the playoffs and meanwhile if our number one pick develops into what we expected him to be, I think there is no better scenario for us right now.

[Harry Palmer]

WHEN HE WAS DRAFTED COLANGELO DELARED THAT: " he is (andrea) a PROJECT ...we'll evaluate HIM after 4/5 years " period!!.

plus the draft was very poor...rudy gay isn't a FORCE, lamarcus is playing 50% and plus minutes more than andrea.

The only problem with what you say here is that it's mostly not true.

A) Re: project. While we WERE asked for patience, as we would be with any draft pick, the organization, from BC to Mr. Swirsky, openly bristled at the suggestion that Bargs was a project taknen first overall. Viewers might remember Mr. Swirsky more than once emphatically saying '...and he's NOT a project, Jack.' or whatever.

B) What's a FORCE? How is Gay not a force? I am continually amazed how lauded a 21 year old putting up 11.5/4/1 on 40% shooting was, while a 21 year old putting up 20/5.5/2/1.5/1 on 48% shooting is dismissed. I would say most Gms and virtually every announcing crew that sees him considers him a force. The Sac announcers last night were raving about West's steal, saying "Shane Battier is a very good player, but this kid is going to be a star...a really special star...and one of the best plyers in the league for a long time."

Those are the kinds of comments announcers make about him almost every night. I'd call that a FORCE.

C) Aldridge, like Gay and Roy, are getting more minutes because they have earned them. Take a look at their efficiencies, their shooting %'s, their production/minute, and you will see how silly it is to say the difference between Bargs and them at this point is PT.

[The_Hater]

I know what you are saying there. But our plan A (Alex English) is not working so far, thus we need to launch a plan B (i.e hire a big man coach for bargnani only). A lot of people just do not realize that Colangelo knew that Bargnani could not rebound when he drafted him. He drafted Bargnani not for now but for future. Also, from my observation there are more than one reasons that Bargnani does not get rebounds.

This is quite possible. But it's also possible that A) Bargs isn't a very willing student and isn't willing to change his ways B) that we're being a bit impatient and perhaps the lightbulb will go off if he's given more time. I'm not really buying the second one however.

As for your 'for the future' comment, that's a complete cop-out. BC never made a single comment eluding to the word 'project' when he was drafted. He was already a pretty prominent player in Europe, a key player on a championship team and wasn't a teenager anymore, so the expectation was that he was going to step in an contribute right away. And guess what? He did. No rookie is a finished product but Bargs did hit the ground running. 25 mpg on a 47 win team and was 2nd in the ROY voting.

The issue at hand is why has he's regressed in year 2? Everyone from his biggest supporters to his biggest skeptics was expecting to see some sort of improvement. And only now because he's struggling are people saying 'hey wait, our expectations are too high. He's a project!' And that includes Colangelo and his 'wait 5 years' comment.

He's already 22 years old so he's not a pup. We don't need to look far to see players that were 22 during their 2nd NBA season and were already extablished as huge stars. He simply needs to step up and people need to stop making excuses for the fact that he hasn't improved most of his glaring weaknesses. I'm not saying that he should be a finished product, but he certainly should be better than this. And I can guarantee that anybody that argues differently is doing a complete 180 from what they thought he would be before the season began.

[Harry Palmer]

[quote="saham"][/quote]

What happens if Plan B doesn't work?