Image ImageImage Image

Paxson wants 30+ minutes a night for young guys?

Moderators: HomoSapien, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10, Ice Man, dougthonus, Michael Jackson, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23

User avatar
Neusch23
Head Coach
Posts: 7,250
And1: 59
Joined: Jul 04, 2005
Location: Green Bay
     

 

Post#161 » by Neusch23 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:58 pm

coldfish wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Well, that's your opinion and its not really based in the statistical evidence to date. The Bulls are on a 32 win pace, which is pretty bad. It would be hard to be worse than that having them surrounded with Kirk, Ben and Luol.

Beyond that, to date this season, the team is better off with them on the floor than on the bench.

It is my opinion that if Ben Wallace lost all of his minutes this season, past and future, to Noah, the Bulls would win more than 32 games over this season.

Why? Because Noah makes less mistakes. A LOT less mistakes. Beyond that, the offense and defense schemes are better suited to Noah than Wallace.

Tyrus is in a different boat in that most of his minutes would come from Joe Smith, who is a much better player (than Wallace) and fits the Bulls needs well. I can't honestly say that exchanging Smith for Tyrus right now would help the team.


While I agree that Noah is a good fit, I don't think he could play Wallace's minutes right now. I believe that the noah we see for spurts would not hold up for a game.

That is my opinion. Wallace is right up there conditioning wise with the best in the game, IMO.

Noah knows one speed. Now, if he could do that for a game, then yes, I agree. I don't think that he can.

I also disagree with several top posters around here on Wallace. while there are a lot of parts of his game that I dislike, there are more that I do like. However, he isn't the same player from his last year in Detroit, and I feel that if we used him better that we would be better.

We are on a better than 32 win pace right now because of our poor start. However i feel we need to get back to a much slower pace, to get a good pick in this guard heavy draft.

You're my go to guy for stats, but for this I don't care what they show because I believe them to be fools gold.

From the games that I have watched, where Noah has got good burn he is much, much less productive toward the end of his minutes.

This doesn't worry me since he is a rookie. That knock can go on any rook. Right now I am in play for the future.

Play the kids, a lot. This puts us in a postion to get them a lot of experience, from game speed, to how hard they have to work to be effective in the league.

This will also lead to losses IMO. Which will lead to a better pick and a brighter future.
User avatar
coldfish
Forum Mod - Bulls
Forum Mod - Bulls
Posts: 60,540
And1: 37,778
Joined: Jun 11, 2004
Location: Right in the middle
   

 

Post#162 » by coldfish » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:12 pm

Neusch23 wrote:While I agree that Noah is a good fit, I don't think he could play Wallace's minutes right now. I believe that the noah we see for spurts would not hold up for a game.

That is my opinion. Wallace is right up there conditioning wise with the best in the game, IMO.

....

From the games that I have watched, where Noah has got good burn he is much, much less productive toward the end of his minutes.


Which is EXACTLY what Wallace has done. Go look at the 300 threads bitching about how Wallace got destroyed in the 4th quarter by Eddy Curry.

You're my go to guy for stats, but for this I don't care what they show because I believe them to be fools gold.


My opinion of Wallace versus Noah is firmly based on what I see on the court. Noah executes better, consistently, on both sides of the court right now.

The stats just back up my evaluation.

This will also lead to losses IMO. Which will lead to a better pick and a brighter future.


Playing Wallace 40 mpg is the surest road to the lottery, IMO.
BULLHITTER
Banned User
Posts: 4,814
And1: 19
Joined: Dec 05, 2007

 

Post#163 » by BULLHITTER » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:12 pm

Man, if we thought the 2000 Free Agent debacle was a black mark against the franchise, wait until Gordon and Deng join the "no comment" chorus against playing in Chicago currently led by Jamal, Eddy, Tyson. In fact, could you imagine a starting five of Gordon, Jamal, Deng, Tyson and Eddy?

We're leaking like a sieve.


sorry, but that's absurd; if FA's around the league look to that group as a reason to not come to chicago F'em i'd say.

none of them have any crediblity. what have any of them done? and until deng and gordon don't resign, all this op is "gloom and doom"......

yes, i can imagine a starting five of that group; can't say i see much more than i do now, though. seems to me looking at tyson is revisionist wishing, because jamal, eddy and tyson have already been together, and as i recall the team lost close to 60 games with them. it's 5 years later, jamal's the same player, tyson's been "prettied up" playing with a top 5 pg, and curry's been benched.

that's a "sieve" for yo' azz :noway:
User avatar
kyrv
RealGM
Posts: 60,439
And1: 3,789
Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Location: Intimidated by TNT

 

Post#164 » by kyrv » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:20 pm

BULLHITTER wrote:
Man, if we thought the 2000 Free Agent debacle was a black mark against the franchise, wait until Gordon and Deng join the "no comment" chorus against playing in Chicago currently led by Jamal, Eddy, Tyson. In fact, could you imagine a starting five of Gordon, Jamal, Deng, Tyson and Eddy?

We're leaking like a sieve.


sorry, but that's absurd; if FA's around the league look to that group as a reason to not come to chicago F'em i'd say.

none of them have any crediblity. what have any of them done? and until deng and gordon don't resign, all this op is "gloom and doom"......

yes, i can imagine a starting five of that group; can't say i see much more than i do now, though. seems to me looking at tyson is revisionist wishing, because jamal, eddy and tyson have already been together, and as i recall the team lost close to 60 games with them. it's 5 years later, jamal's the same player, tyson's been "prettied up" playing with a top 5 pg, and curry's been benched.

that's a "sieve" for yo' azz :noway:


I still believe the best thing about the Ben Wallace is that is will (er, should) prevent people from spouting "no FA will ever come to Chicago".

In fact, could you imagine a starting five of Gordon, Jamal, Deng, Tyson and Eddy?


Wow, that's a bad team. Tyson and Eddy play horribly together. Ugh.

Thanks for the reminder, that we are in fact better off now. :)
Bill Walton wrote: Keep the music playing.
User avatar
theagent
General Manager
Posts: 8,359
And1: 508
Joined: Feb 25, 2002
Location: "All the pieces matter" - Lester Freamon

 

Post#165 » by theagent » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:20 pm

SensiBull wrote:Man, if we thought the 2000 Free Agent debacle was a black mark against the franchise, wait until Gordon and Deng join the "no comment" chorus against playing in Chicago currently led by Jamal, Eddy, Tyson. In fact, could you imagine a starting five of Gordon, Jamal, Deng, Tyson and Eddy?

We're leaking like a sieve.



eh I don't think so.

BG and Deng are not worth the money they were crying for. Not to mention BG and Deng are no where near TMAC status of 2000
User avatar
DuckIII
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 71,582
And1: 36,931
Joined: Nov 25, 2003
Location: On my high horse.
     

 

Post#166 » by DuckIII » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:23 pm

SensiBull wrote:In fact, could you imagine a starting five of Gordon, Jamal, Deng, Tyson and Eddy?


I can imagine it. It would suck.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
User avatar
kyrv
RealGM
Posts: 60,439
And1: 3,789
Joined: Jan 02, 2003
Location: Intimidated by TNT

 

Post#167 » by kyrv » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:28 pm

Neusch23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
If Pax is talking about wanting to see 30 min a night from Tyrus and Noah, and he is coming out publically stating such, then he also believes we are throwing in the towel.


Possibly.

I have to believe that if we were playing good ball, that we wouldn't have to listen to our GM state opinions on matters that he shouldn't be commenting on. He is the GM. His Job is to find the players, find the coach, not micro manage the team.


You or I don't define his job or role. How is he micro managing the team by the way? He said nothing for years as, Pax himself said he did not always agree with what he was watching. He did nothing to resolve it. That's his job? Sit idly by and let the coach use a high school offense?

This is why I am not a fan a Jerry Jones, MR. Micro manager himself. Hire the right people and let the people with expirence do their thing.


As a bad example, you may want to pick someone who hasn't won multiple championships. In addition, when one of us spends millions for something and then just hands the keys over, I think then we can comment on that. I however can't assume that is what we would do. In fact the fact that you tell a GM what his job is, makes me think perhaps, you would not be hands off?

Right now we have a green coach. A team full of players, and I believe no one with a game plan on how to use them because this roster is like a puzzle missing pieces.


Green coach? GM giving input? Those two would seem to go together. As, a good thing.

We need to make some moves, and one should be to get the youth in there, and we need to stop winning games. Getting Tyrus and Noah in the the game will cause us to loose more games UNLESS we change our system around to use them better.


Okay don't take this the wrong way, but if you mean 'lose', please say 'lose', 'loose' is often used in conjunction with sports and has a completely different meaning.

But basically we agree the youngsters should be playing, so not posting this to disagree with you on that.

Go Bulls. This weekend I'll also be watching the playoffs, where in the NFC micro manager Mr. Jerry Jones is the top seed. :)
Bill Walton wrote: Keep the music playing.
Fl_Flash
Starter
Posts: 2,490
And1: 382
Joined: Jun 28, 2001
     

 

Post#168 » by Fl_Flash » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:29 pm

Well, I'd be all for playing Noah, Gray, Thomas and Sefolosha more. I'll echo the sentiments of others in this thread: I don't see how giving them more minutes equates to losing more games. I actually believe playing the four above players more minutes and, more importantly, more consistant minutes will pay huge dividends not only this season but down the road.

Take the minutes from Wallace, Noch and Duhon primarily. To a lesser extent Deng and Smith and give them to the Four Forgotten Horsemen of the Apocolypse and let them wreak havoc!

It can't be much worse than it is now...
User avatar
Neusch23
Head Coach
Posts: 7,250
And1: 59
Joined: Jul 04, 2005
Location: Green Bay
     

 

Post#169 » by Neusch23 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:12 pm

kyrv wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Okay don't take this the wrong way, but if you mean 'lose', please say 'lose', 'loose' is often used in conjunction with sports and has a completely different meaning.

But basically we agree the youngsters should be playing, so not posting this to disagree with you on that.

Go Bulls. This weekend I'll also be watching the playoffs, where in the NFC micro manager Mr. Jerry Jones is the top seed. :)


First off I never said that you can't be successful and also micro manage your team to death. I stated I didn't like Jerry Jones, and how he did business, that doesn't mean that it can't be successful!

Secondly, we didn't have a HS offense. You're not paying attention if you never heard the countless people PRAISE Skiles for his use of sets.

We just had a system that wasn't built for our players. What we have is a system that should be cut in half, and used as part of a bigger plan with more post offense. Problem with that....Pax has NEVER added a good offensive post player. So what was Skiles to do?? Keep drawing up more and more sets to create space for jump shooters, since we have a TON of those.

You're right that you and I don't define his role, but in basketball NAME the GM's that start demanding who plays and who doesn't?

That IS NOT pax's Job. that is the coach's job. If Pax doesn't like how the coach is using the players that he drafted, then he needs to get a coach that believes in the same things that he does, or coach him self.

You're wrong when you said he did nothing to resolve the issues of him not liking how things were going. He fired his coach. That is what GM's do. If the coach isn't coaching, or using the players in the fashion that the GM thinks will win, the GM should get a different coach. Why? Because the only job of the coach is to manage the team on the court. Just as the only job of the GM is to make sure that the players he drafts, or the players he trades for, or the Free Agents he signed are used for the reasons he traded, drafted, or signed them for. If they are not, you get rid of the coach.

Now, he could still be very successful by sticking his nose in the coach's business, but it will be tougher to find a coach, and there will be a lot more drama. Just as there is always a lot of drama around jones. But he is one of the best and makes it work. Pax....he still has a lot to prove. That still doesn't mean that I have to like how Jones does business.
:D
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 58,666
And1: 18,775
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

 

Post#170 » by dougthonus » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:05 am


That IS NOT pax's Job. that is the coach's job. If Pax doesn't like how the coach is using the players that he drafted, then he needs to get a coach that believes in the same things that he does, or coach him self.


It is Paxson's job to set the direction for the franchise. If there are playing time issues then it's his job to make sure they are ironed out how he wants.

Brian CoAngelo did this in Toronto according to the Raptor fans when I asked them (after you said I was incorrect). Danny Ainge did this last year (to tank games with Doc Rivers).

I would suspec the vast majority of times there aren't major playing time challenges that need to be worked out, but I'm sure quite frequently GMs send messages to their coaches to give certain guys more looks.
User avatar
Neusch23
Head Coach
Posts: 7,250
And1: 59
Joined: Jul 04, 2005
Location: Green Bay
     

 

Post#171 » by Neusch23 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:42 am

dougthonus wrote:

That IS NOT pax's Job. that is the coach's job. If Pax doesn't like how the coach is using the players that he drafted, then he needs to get a coach that believes in the same things that he does, or coach him self.


It is Paxson's job to set the direction for the franchise. If there are playing time issues then it's his job to make sure they are ironed out how he wants.

Brian CoAngelo did this in Toronto according to the Raptor fans when I asked them (after you said I was incorrect). Danny Ainge did this last year (to tank games with Doc Rivers).

I would suspec the vast majority of times there aren't major playing time challenges that need to be worked out, but I'm sure quite frequently GMs send messages to their coaches to give certain guys more looks.


I never said you were incorrect, I said that I would be shocked if that were true.

If I owned a team I would call an the act of a GM interferring with the how a coach, coach's to be the biggest sign of major problems a head. I would then replace my GM.

Now. Tanking is a different story, as I stated before.

Should a GM choose to sacrafice his coach (making him not focus on winning) so that the franchise can move forward, this is different.

I would bet that in most cases of this the coach is soon to leave anyways. This happens a lot toward the end of lost seasons. GM's shut it down, or they shut the best players down to look toward the future.


Pax is stating this nonsense at the begining of the season, basically. We haven't played half of our season and he is sticking his nose into rotations.

I don't believe thats a place for a GM. That isn't why he was hired, unless he is a GM/coach.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 58,666
And1: 18,775
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

 

Post#172 » by dougthonus » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:31 am

I never said you were incorrect, I said that I would be shocked if that were true.

If I owned a team I would call an the act of a GM interferring with the how a coach, coach's to be the biggest sign of major problems a head. I would then replace my GM.


If you were the guy who owned the team, you would hire the GM you trust to get the job done. Why would you then back the coach that GM hires rather than the GM you yourself picked out? That's fine if you feel that way, but it really doesn't matter. The owner is generally giving control of the team to the GM in most cases with a certain set of parameters to work under. I would bet that there are very few owners in the NBA who would tell a GM that he can't instruct his coach to play certain people. In fact, I would bet there is not a single owner in the NBA who would instruct his GM in that way.

There are many reasons why a GM may need a coach to play someone.

To develop talent.
To showcase talent for a trade.
To find out what they have in young players to see how to build for the future.

These are goals which are often important for the franchise which are not inline with a coaches goals of just winning and losing games. If a GM needs to accomplish this goal then it's his job to set the direction of the franchise to make that happen.

Your counter-argument that he should hire a coach who shares the same belief is patently ridiculous for most of these goals. Is there a coach out there who's game plan is to "showcase a guy for a trade" or who's game plan is to "find out what the team has for the future". No, no coach is ever going to be hired if he goes in there and says "I'm all about showcasing guys for trades, that's my coaching strategy".

There simply exist situations where a GM has to tell a coach to make certain rotational adjustments to accomplish the goals of the franchise.

Pax is stating this nonsense at the begining of the season, basically. We haven't played half of our season and he is sticking his nose into rotations.


Based on the playing time, that does not appear to be the case that he's doing this. It SHOULD be the case, but it isn't. Paxson is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team. He has every right to tell the coach to do whatever he wants.

I don't believe thats a place for a GM. That isn't why he was hired, unless he is a GM/coach.


I believe that a GM should have this power. I also believe that every owner of an NBA franchise believes that an owner should have thi power.

Regardless of how either one of us believe, it's been demonstrated that some GMs do have this power and have exercised it as Brian CoAngelo said as much on public radio.
User avatar
Jello Biafra
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,848
And1: 422
Joined: May 28, 2003
Location: At a 12 step meeting near you
Contact:
         

 

Post#173 » by Jello Biafra » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:51 pm

I can't live with another rebuilding. Especially with Pax's recent draft choices. They are essentially bereft of NBA skill. We'd be the worst team in the league. I can't handle that again. 10 freakin years. Got close last year. Glimmer of hope. Lets not trash it just yet. A lot of people wish for perpetual rebuilding. Play the rookies. The grass is greener. I say trade them all for some guys that will help us win.
BULLHITTER
Banned User
Posts: 4,814
And1: 19
Joined: Dec 05, 2007

 

Post#174 » by BULLHITTER » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:40 pm

I can't live with another rebuilding. Especially with Pax's recent draft choices. They are essentially bereft of NBA skill. We'd be the worst team in the league. I can't handle that again. 10 freakin years. Got close last year. Glimmer of hope. Lets not trash it just yet. A lot of people wish for perpetual rebuilding. Play the rookies. The grass is greener. I say trade them all for some guys that will help us win.


by all accounts, every player paxson has picked has been deemed worthy of where they were picked, so "bereft of nba skill" is wholly and grossly inaccurate. further, i can't recall anyone herein wishing for perpetual rebuilding. being a few games under .500 yet still in the hunt for the playoffs, isn't a "blow up the team" proposition in my view. the team needs some corrective direction, certainly, but there's hardly reason for such a fatalistic view; that is unless "championship or bust" is the only reason to watch pro basketball.

fact is, ideas/philosophies/directions that were expected to go correctly have gone terribly wrong. therefore, if some fans can't accept the fact that during the "road" to a finals, there isn't a straight and narrow path (name one team that has), then "living" though another "rebuild" (poster choice of words, not mine) might be fatal. my suggestion; see a shrink, cause the bulls are far too important in your psyche.

I say trade them all for some guys that will help us win.


trade them for whom? that's obviously a question the average fan can't answer. and being that the alternative to "rebuilding" is "dying", one might surmise when those "some guys that will help us win" arrive, you'll be dead......
bre9
Pro Prospect
Posts: 965
And1: 0
Joined: Mar 01, 2007

 

Post#175 » by bre9 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:18 pm

I think we should stop saying get more playing time for the young guys and just say the new guys need more playing time. I thought they(Thabo, Tyrus,Noah,Gray,Curry) were like 19. But I check there age and their right up their in age with our current core accept for Wallace and Joe.

Ty Tomas > 21
Thabo Sef > 23
Jo Noah > 22
Aaro Gray > 23
James Curry>22

Our Core Players

Luol Deng > 22
Ben Gordon > 24
Chris Duhon > 25
Kirk Hinrich > 27
Andres N. > 28

Older Guys

Joe Smith > 32
Ben Wallace > 33

So I guess the only guys that need their Playing time tooken away are the starting bigs( Wallace and Smith) cause their not going to get any better in the age of thirty. So I guess Tyrus, Noah, and Gray need more playing time. And Thabo can squeeze into the SF, SG spots some.
User avatar
Neusch23
Head Coach
Posts: 7,250
And1: 59
Joined: Jul 04, 2005
Location: Green Bay
     

 

Post#176 » by Neusch23 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:28 pm

dougthonus wrote:
I never said you were incorrect, I said that I would be shocked if that were true.

If I owned a team I would call an the act of a GM interferring with the how a coach, coach's to be the biggest sign of major problems a head. I would then replace my GM.


If you were the guy who owned the team, you would hire the GM you trust to get the job done. Why would you then back the coach that GM hires rather than the GM you yourself picked out? That's fine if you feel that way, but it really doesn't matter. The owner is generally giving control of the team to the GM in most cases with a certain set of parameters to work under. I would bet that there are very few owners in the NBA who would tell a GM that he can't instruct his coach to play certain people. In fact, I would bet there is not a single owner in the NBA who would instruct his GM in that way.

There are many reasons why a GM may need a coach to play someone.

To develop talent.
To showcase talent for a trade.
To find out what they have in young players to see how to build for the future.

These are goals which are often important for the franchise which are not inline with a coaches goals of just winning and losing games. If a GM needs to accomplish this goal then it's his job to set the direction of the franchise to make that happen.

Your counter-argument that he should hire a coach who shares the same belief is patently ridiculous for most of these goals. Is there a coach out there who's game plan is to "showcase a guy for a trade" or who's game plan is to "find out what the team has for the future". No, no coach is ever going to be hired if he goes in there and says "I'm all about showcasing guys for trades, that's my coaching strategy".

There simply exist situations where a GM has to tell a coach to make certain rotational adjustments to accomplish the goals of the franchise.

Pax is stating this nonsense at the begining of the season, basically. We haven't played half of our season and he is sticking his nose into rotations.


Based on the playing time, that does not appear to be the case that he's doing this. It SHOULD be the case, but it isn't. Paxson is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team. He has every right to tell the coach to do whatever he wants.

I don't believe thats a place for a GM. That isn't why he was hired, unless he is a GM/coach.


I believe that a GM should have this power. I also believe that every owner of an NBA franchise believes that an owner should have thi power.

Regardless of how either one of us believe, it's been demonstrated that some GMs do have this power and have exercised it as Brian CoAngelo said as much on public radio.


First off, if I were an owner, I would not back my coach over a GM, I don't know where you got that from what I said.

My point is this.

The GM's Job is to draft, trade, and Sign FA. He builds the team. He doesn't coach the team, UNLESS, he takes the bench himself.

As an owner I would trust that I have hired the right GM to run my team. If my GM isn't the coach, and he is going to the media stating who should play, that is telling them how to coach.

If the GM has to tell the coach how to coach, then you don't have the right coach in place, and this is on the GM.

I would look at this as a major sign of trouble ahead.

THis is my opinion. You obviously disagree. I talked to a couple of coach's since, (granted all at the HS level) and asked them if their athletic director (basically the same role as a NBA GM) told them who to play, or dictated to the paper how many minutes he thought players should get, that would be very unhappy, and would not feel secure enough in their job.

The GM has to support their coach to be able to allow them to make the right decisions game in and game out. When the GM feels that the coach has lost his team, or if he isn't using the players that the GM has put in place in the proper mannor, then it is on the GM to get a new coach....not tell that coach how to coach because frankly that would be a waste of time.

Coach's each have a system. No matter the coach, each coach a game a specific way. In college, if you hire dick bennett, you then don't tell him that you want to run a fast paced offense. You hire him because you want to play that type of ball, and the players you have will fit that system.

Now. If the GM comes to the coach and says that he is in the process of making a trade, then they have to work together to figure out how they want to go about this.

Is this common place for a winning team? Depends. But if we knew that we were going to work very hard, and take basically any deal for player A, that would change how the coach uses this player. BUT the GM shouldn't demand minutes for a different player.

The coach and GM should alway be able to have an understanding of the goals for the team. Both be working toward the same thing.

Right now, it is obvious that Pax and Jim are not. Pax is saying one thing, Jim doing another.

Tell me how well this works? Sounds like we need a different coach that is more of a coach that believes in what pax wants to do.
User avatar
dougthonus
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 58,666
And1: 18,775
Joined: Dec 22, 2004
Contact:
 

 

Post#177 » by dougthonus » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:45 pm

My point is this.

The GM's Job is to draft, trade, and Sign FA. He builds the team. He doesn't coach the team, UNLESS, he takes the bench himself.


What if to facilitate trades, judge the existing talent, build for the future, or to successfully perform other functions of his job your GM needs to have certain players see the court?

Would your GM not have the right to make sure someone he hires goes along with his vision to help him do the job. The GM is the boss of the coach. The GM needs to set the direction of the franchise. The GM may need to see different things on the team to decide how to do all of the things that fall into the job responsibilities you outlined.

It would follow that the GM would then have the power to direct the coaches in such a way as to make these things happen. We're not talking about installing schemes, running practices, managing timeouts, or managing specific rotations here.

As an owner I would trust that I have hired the right GM to run my team. If my GM isn't the coach, and he is going to the media stating who should play, that is telling them how to coach.


What if he's not going to the media? What if he just tells the coach I think I need to decide how to best give this team a chance to win next year, in order to do that, we need to see our recent draftees on the court to see if they can get the job done or to see if we need to shop them?

If the GM has to tell the coach how to coach, then you don't have the right coach in place, and this is on the GM.


Telling a coach to put a certain player in the game for a certain amount of time isn't telling him how to coach. It's not controlling the scheme, it's not controlling the overall rotations, combination of players, the practices or anything else. It's setting the guidelines under which the coach has to operate.

This would be similar to an owner telling a GM, you can't go over the luxury tax. Why would an owner do that? It's the GM's responsibility to sign players and manage payroll isn't it? Oh wait, the owner is a level above the GM and is allowed to place restrictions on what the GM can and can not do.

I would look at this as a major sign of trouble ahead.


It certainly was major trouble for Toronto who ended a long playoff drought and has their coach win the coach of the year award.

THis is my opinion. You obviously disagree. I talked to a couple of coach's since, (granted all at the HS level) and asked them if their athletic director (basically the same role as a NBA GM) told them who to play, or dictated to the paper how many minutes he thought players should get, that would be very unhappy, and would not feel secure enough in their job.


How is this even remotely the same thing? I mean how is it even in the ball park? Do HS coaches have to deal with free agency? The draft? Trades? All of the reasons a GM might want to see a guy on the court other than generating wins do not exist in High School. Not a single reason I mentioned overlaps, thus this parallel has zero baring on what I'm discussing. To take it a step further, high school coaches are not being paid millions of dollars with only 30 opportunities in existence for a job.

The GM has to support their coach to be able to allow them to make the right decisions game in and game out. When the GM feels that the coach has lost his team, or if he isn't using the players that the GM has put in place in the proper mannor, then it is on the GM to get a new coach....not tell that coach how to coach because frankly that would be a waste of time.


:dontknow:

It's like you are deciding to just ignore the way the NBA works or any of the ancillary reasons that GMs do exactly what I'm discussing. The NBA is a business, and there are business goals as well as win/loss goals. The GM needs to step in and make sure the coach's philosophy helps fit in on the business side. There are times when teams need to play people when there is no coaching reason to do so.

Coach's each have a system. No matter the coach, each coach a game a specific way. In college, if you hire dick bennett, you then don't tell him that you want to run a fast paced offense. You hire him because you want to play that type of ball, and the players you have will fit that system.


I agree for the most part, and have never suggested Paxson try to change Boylan's schemes.

Now. If the GM comes to the coach and says that he is in the process of making a trade, then they have to work together to figure out how they want to go about this.

Is this common place for a winning team? Depends. But if we knew that we were going to work very hard, and take basically any deal for player A, that would change how the coach uses this player. BUT the GM shouldn't demand minutes for a different player.


Only because you think so. You've created this arbitrary rule based on your feelings that doesn't exist in the real world of the NBA. The GM has every right to place ANY RESTRICTION HE WANTS on the coach. He hires the coach, and can fire the coach, and if the coach is unhappy with the restrictions placed upon him then he can quit and go try to find one of the other 29 jobs in the NBA as head coach for millions of dollars.

The coach and GM should alway be able to have an understanding of the goals for the team. Both be working toward the same thing.

Right now, it is obvious that Pax and Jim are not. Pax is saying one thing, Jim doing another.

Tell me how well this works? Sounds like we need a different coach that is more of a coach that believes in what pax wants to do.


I don't think there is discord yet between Paxson and Boylan. Paxson has said he has two goals. To win, and to see the kids play more. The quote from this article was specifically something like "I'm going to let this go for awhile, but if things don't turn around we're going to go with the youth movement". It sounds to me like Boylan has paxson's approval to play vets and try to right the ship for a set amount of time.

Return to Chicago Bulls