Hinrich is the reason the bulls are this bad!

JimmyJammer · Post #1 » by **JimmyJammer** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:15 pm

I have looked at many scenarios to see why the bulls are a worse team than last year, but I have finally come up with the conclusion that Hinrich's poor play has been the reason. We have added Joe Smith who is an upgrade over PJ Brown; Ben Gordon, Nocioni and Deng's productions are similar to last season's. We have two promising rookies in Gray and Noah, and Tyrus Thomas is one year older. One can say that Duhon and Sefolosha have been disappointing, but the secret lies in Hinrich. His playmaking ability has been terrible, his defense has been sloppy, his shooting has been terrible, so the team must now rely heavily on Gordon and Deng, who are not great scorers in the first place, for most of the scoring. The bulls are a better team when Hinrich is playing great defense and when he is knocking down his three-point shots consistently, since Gordon and Deng will always find their way to get their 20 points.

Bulls69 · Post #2 » by **Bulls69** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:28 pm

Tyrusaurus wrote:I have looked at many scenarios to see why the bulls are a worse team than last year, but I have finally come up with the conclusion that Hinrich's poor play has been the reason. We have added Joe Smith who is an upgrade over PJ Brown; Ben Gordon, Nocioni and Deng's productions are similar to last season's. We have two promising rookies in Gray and Noah, and Tyrus Thomas is one year older. One can say that Duhon and Sefolosha have been disappointing, but the secret lies in Hinrich. His playmaking ability has been terrible, his defense has been sloppy, his shooting has been terrible, so the team must now rely heavily on Gordon and Deng, who are not great scorers in the first place, for most of the scoring. The bulls are a better team when Hinrich is playing great defense and when he is knocking down his three-point shots consistently, since Gordon and Deng will always find their way to get their 20 points.

I have been blasting Kirk all year but he is not the only reason the Bulls are playing like crap but I think Kirk days in Chicago is numbered.

fudgie · Post #3 » by **fudgie** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:40 pm

I was thinking about starting a thread on this but I'll throw my thoughts in here. I wouldn't call Hinrich THE problem but he is a major reason for our play this season.

He has a PER of 12, 47.7 TS% and 29.6 3P%. This is over a span of 34 games so the sample size isn't exactly small. I don't know what the reason for this decline is. He was supposed to be well rested for this season because he didn't play for Team USA, but that clearly hasn't helped. I don't buy this marriage stuff, do you know how many players get married and don't have their games fall off a cliff. Tons. It's near impossible to pinpoint a reason for his regression.

His defense which used to be his strongest characteristic has been average (sometimes below average). There's pretty much no way of prove this with stats but from what I've seen it hasn't been very good and there's been some people on the board that have pointed it out too. He used to take the best guard and make him work for every point on a nightly basis, now he's a minor nuisance to him. FWIW 82games has his opponents PER listed as 16.7 at PG and 18.1 at SG as opposed to 13.8/14.3 last season.

I guess I can sum it up best in that not one facet of his game has been above average this season. I used to be a big Hinrich supporter but as of now he has to prove to me that he's a part of our long term future. I'm open to trading him in the offseason. I don't want any Chandler style salary dumps, but if we can get value for him (say, move into the draft) then I'm for it.

Post #4 » by **Tommy Udo 6** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:44 pm

the sad part is that management believed so strongly in Kirk and would not trade him when he had real trade value - nor would they draft a pure PG like Roy.

BULLHITTER · Post #5 » by **BULLHITTER** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:49 pm

nor would they draft a pure PG like Roy.

roy is not a pure pg, he's the same as a joe johnson, dwayne wade, et al.
a big two combo that can create off the dribble and distribute and score equally. steve blake and jarrett jack are the TB pg's.

HOWEVER, re: hinrich.....with the idea that your PG make the team go, from square one, much of the lackluster team play could be pointed at KH; he's the facilitator of everything.

the NO pg is the reason so many bull fans are seeing tyson chandler as the guy "pax let get away for nothing".....

Post #6 » by **Tommy Udo 6** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:51 pm

BULLHITTER wrote:
nor would they draft a pure PG like Roy.

roy is not a pure pg, he's the same as a joe johnson, dwayne wade, et al.
a big two combo that can create off the dribble and distribute and score equally. steve blake and jarrett jack are the TB pg's.

ok

but the bulls obviously had a lot of faith in Kirk & Ben G - neither wholly justified

Post #7 » by **coldfish** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:52 pm

The thing is that Kirk has never been this bad. Even his defense is mediocre to poor. Its completely unreasonable to say: "I told you so" with regards to Hinrich because nothing about him suggests that he would suddenly get much worse than he ever had been in his career.

That more than anything is why I would hesitate to trade him. No more Chandler trades.

PER by year:
13.1
15.3
15.5
17.0
11.8

Post #8 » by **suckfish** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:53 pm

Whats funny is that people thought he would be well rested and fresh considering he didn't play for team USA. Maybe he took the summer too lightly?

I doubt it though, it's just so mystifying as to why he has been so bad.

Post #9 » by **Tommy Udo 6** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:55 pm

suckfish wrote:Whats funny is that people thought he would be well rested and fresh considering he didn't play for team USA. Maybe he took the summer too lightly?

I doubt it though, it's just so mystifying as to why he has been so bad.

he has just reached his potential and other teams have figured him out

he refuses to drive to the basket

so other teams just let him shot the long shot which he usually misses

Post #10 » by **coldfish** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:58 pm

bulls6 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

he has just reached his potential and other teams have figured him out

he refuses to drive to the basket

so other teams just let him shot the long shot which he usually misses

He actually has been a historically good outside shooter. He is a career 38.6% guy and was over 40 last year. This year, he is still less than 30% from 3. If teams just "let him shoot the long shot" he would be killing them if he played like he has in the past.

Red Larrivee · Post #11 » by **Red Larrivee** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:27 pm

Hinrich isn't soley the problem, but he plays his part in it. I still maintain that this team if they keep anyone out of the core it should be Gordon/Deng over any other combo. Hinrich isn't a bad player, but Gordon/Deng can bring so much more together, with the right mix of players around them.

I'd trade him and re-sign Gordon/Deng to reasonable deals.

MissileMike · Post #12 » by **MissileMike** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:54 pm

He has always been a poor +/- player. Combine him with two other poor +/- players (Nocioni, Wallace) and it's a recipe for disaster.

They're the three that would be first on my list to go... But then again, Wallace and Hinrich have very low value currently.

Mr. Tibbs · Post #13 » by **Mr. Tibbs** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:55 pm

i find him to be least valuable or most valuable of the core depending on how u look at it. When he sucks like this he is the least valuable..but our teams ridiculous struggling makes it more evident that having a good hinrich was so important to the team...so in that sense he is valuable...though that line of thinking doesn't do much for us now.

I think some of the weight he put on is what's hurting him defensively. He was never big but he was a great defender because he was always quick enough to beat players to spots and always stay in front of his man. This year he's almost always a step slow and having to foul/silly fouls are the effects of that.

treyZz · Post #14 » by **treyZz** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:00 am

He is been absolutely brutal this year. Just absolute trash.

But, everyone knows when we trade him and he goes to a team where he doesn't have to defend the teams best player and doesn't have to run the offense he will be a pretty good player.

I'd still love to trade him, but he has no trade value now. I honestly wouldn't want to be in Paxsons shoes right now - this team is a disaster & the worst part is we are going to win enough games to stop us from grabbing one of the stars in this years draft.

Post #15 » by **DJhitek** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:10 am

Hinrich is a big reason why we are so bad, but not the sole one. Up until Boylan took over there was not a single Bull that was playing well outside of Joe Smith and Deng to an extent(decent but expected to take a big step).

That said, I'd rather blame Ben Wallace because we have a ton of younger guys behind him that need to play more and would be more productive. I don't think, as bad as Kirk has been, that Duhon is that much better. Besides the fact that they won't play Gordon at the point.

Post #16 » by **emperorjones** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:13 am

suckfish wrote: it's just so mystifying as to why he has been so bad.

He got married. Some guys it doesnt affect. Others...it zaps the fire out of them. Just ask David Robinson.

Go figure :dontknow:

Addicted123 · Post #17 » by **Addicted123** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:13 am

Bulls69 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I have been blasting Kirk all year but he is not the only reason the Bulls are playing like crap but I think Kirk days in Chicago is numbered.

Captain Kirk is the Bulls' white golden boy. He is going no where. Gordon's days are numbered.

MGB8 · Post #18 » by **MGB8** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:20 am

I've never had a very high opinion of Kirk, so I'm not shocked regarding his play this year. That said, it has been abnormally bad, especially on defense, and he does seem a half step slower. On offense, his shot isn't falling and he hasn't been playing well, and this might also be do to a little slowing down. Is it more weight and muscle? Just age? Marriage?

What really hurts is that his contract was given to him on the assumption that he'd improve, as opposed to take a major step backwards.

I still would try him at SG or off the bench, with the primary role being as a catch and shoot guy, but also taking what the offense will give in terms of passing and driving (let others create), and primarily be the team's no. 1 perimeter defender.

girlygirl · Post #19 » by **girlygirl** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:27 am

It's unfair to blame the team's poor performance on one guy.

Besides, during last season I didn't see very many people claiming Hinrich was the only rason why the team won 49 games and made it into the 2nd round of the playoffs! So if he were the sole reason why they've been so bad this year, would he then have to have been the sole reason why they were good last year?

Yeah...I didn't think so...

Post #20 » by **emperorjones** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:32 am

girlygirl wrote:
So if he were the sole reason why they've been so bad this year, would he then have to have been the sole reason why they were good last year?
.

No, but he is the broken link in the chain. So the chain doesn't work anymore. Thats teh problem with the way the Bulls are built. Everyone has to be playing at their peek for this team to advance. When Noc was hurt the Bulls faltered. Kirk sucks, the Bulls falter. The problem with not having a guy that can carry a team.