Bucks-Suns Postgame Thread 1/12/08

[bigkurty]

I have to ask a hypothetical question. I see Bogut shot 14 of 16, or 88%, tonight, yet did not lead the Bucks in shot attempts (well, he shared the lead with Redd, who was 5/16, 31%). Remembering back to Yi's high scoring game (12/22, 29 pts v. Charlotte), I see Yi was 14 of 17, or 82%, that night but also did not lead the Bucks in attempts (Redd was 10 of 27, 37%).

So my hypothetical question is - under what circumstances will someone other than Redd be considered hot enough to actually get more shots in a game? Is it even possible? Will we ever see it happen in our lifetimes? (Please note that I am not necessarily blaming Redd for this phenomenon, you could also question LK for not calling more plays for the hot hand or whoever is the primary pg or distributor on a given night.)

It is very interesting. The thing is Redd is the alpha dog and is not afraid to jack up a shot at any time. Bogut and Yi could be hot but they do not have the mentality to try and take the game over. If Redd were playing a game where he was shooting those kind of percentages, you know he would jack it up 30+ times. Some of it is probably because he does not have to rely on others to get him the ball in the post or off of a screen to get a possession, but it is also because he can create his own shot easier when he is working in open space on the outside and he can get the ball anywhere on the court and be a threat to score. As years go on and Bogut and Yi continue to advance their games, they will be able to take over and get their own shots more efficiently. The 3 scoring skills a big can really work on are posting up, jump shooting or at least hitting midrange shots, and facing up and taking their man off the dribble. If a big can do 2 out of the 3 very well, the usually end up being very good offensively. If they become good at all 3, they become like Dirk kind of. Thats my analysis anyway. But yeah on a night like tonight, teammates like Redd should recognize how hot Bogut is and how they are not and for the good of the team, they should try harder to get the ball to the hot guy.

[jerrod]

Bogut missed only 2 shots. One was tip in and he made another tip in second after that. The other one was turnaround jumper when he got ball with 2 seconds left.

Hands down most dominant game in Bogut's NBA career

offensively sure, (and i know you're gonna tell me it was all on ruffin) but when the player he's matched up against had 30 something points is it that dominant?


redd gets a lot of heat because he scores a lot but also gives up so many

what's different?

[Epicurus]

Maybe Herb, mindful that Bogut has a contract extension coming, told LK to take him out and not run plays for him when he was in because a guy who can score 40+ is gonna cost too much next year?

And how many shooters were on the Grassy Knoll?

[Andre'3000]

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It is very interesting. The thing is Redd is the alpha dog and is not afraid to jack up a shot at any time. Bogut and Yi could be hot but they do not have the mentality to try and take the game over. If Redd were playing a game where he was shooting those kind of percentages, you know he would jack it up 30+ times. Some of it is probably because he does not have to rely on others to get him the ball in the post or off of a screen to get a possession, but it is also because he can create his own shot easier when he is working in open space on the outside and he can get the ball anywhere on the court and be a threat to score. As years go on and Bogut and Yi continue to advance their games, they will be able to take over and get their own shots more efficiently. The 3 scoring skills a big can really work on are posting up, jump shooting or at least hitting midrange shots, and facing up and taking their man off the dribble. If a big can do 2 out of the 3 very well, the usually end up being very good offensively. If they become good at all 3, they become like Dirk kind of. Thats my analysis anyway. But yeah on a night like tonight, teammates like Redd should recognize how hot Bogut is and how they are not and for the good of the team, they should try harder to get the ball to the hot guy.

On point! Redd will never realize that though.

[jerrod]

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Not all moral victories suck - you have to admit denying Jack Nicholson and Dyan Cannon their free tacos was pretty sweet.

i'm pretty sure jack gets more than enough free tacos whenever he wants

[paul]

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Incomplete analysis--what was the opponent doing to take away the low post? Or am I to believe they did not adjust?

To the naked eye on a first analysis they did not adjust Epi, we adjusted by putting him in the high post, he still had the same defender he'd dominated all night on his back and the sets we were running were clearly designed to go to other guys, like Yi in the low post, Redd on a runaround, Mo on a runaround, Cv in the low block. Pretty much everyone EXCEPT the guy who was destroying them.

[europa]

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Incomplete analysis--what was the opponent doing to take away the low post? Or am I to believe they did not adjust?

epi, the Suns didn't adjust, Krystkowiak did - in a negative fashion. The first mistake was keeping Bogut on the bench for half of the fourth quarter. The second was trying to use him primarily at the high post on screen-and-rolls in the final few minutes. Those plays did work tonight but the vast majority of Bogut's success came in the post. He simply was not given a chance in the post in the final few minutes outside of one attempt where he got the ball with a couple of seconds on the shot clock and had to take a bad shot.

This is all about not understanding what is working and what the opposition cannot defend. That falls on the head coach, the players on the court or both. The Suns' defense had nothing to do with Bogut not getting more post chances with the game on the line.

[rilamann]

I didn't watch the Bucks game,I was watching Pats vs Jags.

Another loss but I see Bogut got 29 & 12 on 14-16.

Its funny,the Bucks make an effort to make sure Bogut is a consistient part of the offense and consistient part of the team and he puts up solid numbers.


Im realy realy shocked by that,I thought Bogut was a poor man's Matt Gieger.

[europa]

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On point! Redd will never realize that though.

And again, I'll bring a fact into the discussion that tonight he wasn't the primary focus of the offense late in the game. So what you guys are talking about is exactly what happened - other players were given a chance with the game on the line. This wasn't the Michael Redd Show in crunch time. Redd has been guilty of trying to do too much and shooting too much at times late in games but that wasn't the case tonight. Again, he had 0 FG attempts in the fourth quarter.

[stellation]

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i'm pretty sure jack gets more than enough free tacos whenever he wants

If Jack isn't getting free tacos there is something wrong with the world.

[Chuck Diesel]

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And how many shooters were on the Grassy Knoll?

Epi while we're on history, I have a way off topic question that I've been wanting to ask you for a while. Couldn

[paul]

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offensively sure, (and i know you're gonna tell me it was all on ruffin) but when the player he's matched up against had 30 something points is it that dominant?


redd gets a lot of heat because he scores a lot but also gives up so many

what's different?

A valid point jerrod, except we were playing a zone for a lot of the night, and when we were in a man ruffin was in for a large chunk of that time. I certainly don't recall Amare taking it at bogut and beating him in the post or anywhere else in a one on one situation many times, do you? On the other hand virtually all of Bogut's points came from one on one situations against Amare. Bogut dominated amare, but amare's numbers still look good.

[Epicurus]

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To the naked eye on a first analysis they did not adjust Epi, we adjusted by putting him in the high post, he still had the same defender he'd dominated all night on his back and the sets we were running were clearly designed to go to other guys, like Yi in the low post, Redd on a runaround, Mo on a runaround, Cv in the low block. Pretty much everyone EXCEPT the guy who was destroying them.

I think that is my point--the naked eye on one viewing isn't going to pick out opponent adjustments. I know mine can't most the time. Remember that heretofore AB is weak when double teams are quick--turnovers ensue. Perhaps (and I repeat not seeing it at all, I really mean "perhaps") the coach picked up the change in the double team pace or direction and didn't have faith in AB's ability to deal with it (or believed that it could be countered by sliding others to that area). I don't know and probably wouldn't with a single viewing anyway.

[paul]

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And how many shooters were on the Grassy Knoll?

yeah this post was meant with tongue firmly planted in cheek Epi, it just highlights how incredibly strange LK's coaching was and the fact that there must have been something else going on in his mind.

[jerrod]

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A valid point jerrod, except we were playing a zone for a lot of the night, and when we were in a man ruffin was in for a large chunk of that time. I certainly don't recall Amare taking it at bogut and beating him in the post or anywhere else in a one on one situation many times, do you? On the other hand virtually all of Bogut's points came from one on one situations against Amare. Bogut dominated amare, but amare's numbers still look good.

you're right too, i don't say that to put down what bogut did. i say that to point out that if we play zone and redd gets lit up he still catches the blame that bogut seems to be impervious to

[jerrod]

i have a question

i have the game on my tivo but does anyone remember how we handled pick and rolls in the first toronto game when tony brown filled in for lk?

[-Jragon-]

I'm reading the board... Michael Redd this, Redd that... I'm tired of talking about it. Time to go meditate on a nicer topic - Packers playoff victory. Have a great evening

[paul]

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I think that is my point--the naked eye on one viewing isn't going to pick out opponent adjustments. I know mine can't most the time. Remember that heretofore AB is weak when double teams are quick--turnovers ensue. Perhaps (and I repeat not seeing it at all, I really mean "perhaps") the coach picked up the change in the double team pace or direction and didn't have faith in AB's ability to deal with it (or believed that it could be countered by sliding others to that area). I don't know and probably wouldn't with a single viewing anyway.

I'm about to watch a replay so I'll talk more about it after that, but the highlighted bold part I found interesting. If that is true on tonight's performance or the past half a dozen games, LK is not a coach. Bogut dominated like no other buck has this season tonight, although that won't be reflected in the points total for the reasons already mentioned. Virtually every single time he caught the ball in the post he scored, the only exceptions being some excellent passes to wide open teammates. He gave 1 TO for the game and handled every double team that came with ease. If you don't have faith in that guy on a night like tonight, your not a coach, or shouldn't be.

[bigkurty]

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And again, I'll bring a fact into the discussion that tonight he wasn't the primary focus of the offense late in the game. So what you guys are talking about is exactly what happened - other players were given a chance with the game on the line. This wasn't the Michael Redd Show in crunch time. Redd has been guilty of trying to do too much and shooting too much at times late in games but that wasn't the case tonight. Again, he had 0 FG attempts in the fourth quarter.

I have to agree with you Europa for the most part about Redd tonight. The thing is if that is the case, why didn't Redd and the others work on feeding Bogut in the low post then? He came out repeatedly to try and run a screen and roll but rarely got the ball out of that and that was the only way he seemed to have a chance to get the ball. I suppose then we have to blame the coach for not running plays to clear out a side so Bogut could set up in the low post. This seems like a logical place to place the blame actually because it wasn't like the Suns started doubling Bogut all the time or anything.

[europa]

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I have to agree with you Europa for the most part about Redd tonight. The thing is if that is the case, why didn't Redd and the others work on feeding Bogut in the low post then?

I don't recall Redd having the ball much late in the game. I think the primary problem as I've been saying is coaching. Bogut was being used too often to try and set high screens instead of just putting him in the post and feeding him the ball. There was one play in particular where Mo dribbled for about 20 seconds and Bogut ran around trying to set a high screen. That's ridiculous. Just put him in the post, deliver the ball to him and see if he could continue dominating inside the way he had been doing the entire game.

There is no good reason why that wasn't tried in the last closing few minutes. None.