Bucks-Suns Postgame Thread 1/12/08

[Andre'3000]

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I have to agree with you Europa for the most part about Redd tonight. The thing is if that is the case, why didn't Redd and the others work on feeding Bogut in the low post then? He came out repeatedly to try and run a screen and roll but rarely got the ball out of that and that was the only way he seemed to have a chance to get the ball. I suppose then we have to blame the coach for not running plays to clear out a side so Bogut could set up in the low post. This seems like a logical place to place the blame actually because it wasn't like the Suns started doubling Bogut all the time or anything.

That is true casue I never seen anything thrown at him to slow him. Coach didnt come though on that end tonight.

[Chuck Diesel]

We could go back and fourth with blame all night. Jeff Van Gundy's helped me come to the conclusion that this team (the way it is currently constructed) will be able to win consistently, let alone beat a good team in a playoff series.

[europa]

We could go back and fourth with blame all night. Jeff Van Gundy's helped me come to the conclusion that this team (the way it is currently constructed) will be able to win consistently, let alone beat a good team in a playoff series.

I agree. The question is what kind of moves is Kohl willing to make and will Harris be the GM to make them? OK, that's actually two questions.

[bigkurty]

We could go back and fourth with blame all night. Jeff Van Gundy's helped me come to the conclusion that this team (the way it is currently constructed) will be able to win consistently, let alone beat a good team in a playoff series.

Hey Chuck, you just became a REALGM I see. Congrats.

[paul]

We could go back and fourth with blame all night. Jeff Van Gundy's helped me come to the conclusion that this team (the way it is currently constructed) will be able to win consistently, let alone beat a good team in a playoff series.

Yes but that is a mute point when your coach has clearly cost you in a tight game. I'm not saying we would have won had he have left Bogut in longer and run sets to him, but given he'd dominated all night why wouldn't you at least try it? The teams problems take a back seat to the coaching problems tonight for me.

[paul]

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I don't recall Redd having the ball much late in the game. I think the primary problem as I've been saying is coaching. Bogut was being used too often to try and set high screens instead of just putting him in the post and feeding him the ball. There was one play in particular where Mo dribbled for about 20 seconds and Bogut ran around trying to set a high screen. That's ridiculous. Just put him in the post, deliver the ball to him and see if he could continue dominating inside the way he had been doing the entire game.

There is no good reason why that wasn't tried in the last closing few minutes. None.

Couldn't possibly agree more.

[Epicurus]

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I'm about to watch a replay so I'll talk more about it after that, but the highlighted bold part I found interesting. If that is true on tonight's performance or the past half a dozen games, LK is not a coach. Bogut dominated like no other buck has this season tonight, although that won't be reflected in the points total for the reasons already mentioned. Virtually every single time he caught the ball in the post he scored, the only exceptions being some excellent passes to wide open teammates. He gave 1 TO for the game and handled every double team that came with ease. If you don't have faith in that guy on a night like tonight, your not a coach, or shouldn't be.

I wasn't clear enough. I am not saying Lk lacks confidence in Bogut doing what he was doing, but maybe lacks confidence in Bogut doing well in the adjustment frame of the opposition. We must remember the coaching staff knows their own players a hell of a lot better than any of us. It is not just a double team, which may have been a more or less perfunctory one earlier and later became a more aggressive or hidden one.

[Chuck Diesel]

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Hey Chuck, you just became a REALGM I see. Congrats.

Hey, how about that. I was wondering when that was going to happen. It only took me about 4 years.

[paul]

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I wasn't clear enough. I am not saying Lk lacks confidence in Bogut doing what he was doing, but maybe lacks confidence in Bogut doing well in the adjustment frame of the opposition. We must remember the coaching staff knows their own players a hell of a lot better than any of us. It is not just a double team, which may have been a more or less perfunctory one earlier and later became a more aggressive or hidden one.

Your right Epi you probably should watch it before commenting, because I don't believe on first viewing there is any justification for not at least attempting to go to your dominant player in his dominant position down the stretch, or for leaving him out for the full first half of the 4th.

One thing we can be certain about, if it was Redd dominating that way in a game there is absolutely no way in hell we wouldn't be going to him, or any dominant player on any team in the league for that matter.

[Epicurus]

Because they have good track records against various types of defensive moves used in the NBA. The coaching staff through their extensive video work are very familiar with what another team does and will do and how their players can matchup against those adjustments. Even without viewing, I can say with ease--it is not all that simple, much information we don't have is available to coaches.

[Epicurus]

Not just aiming at you, Paul, but sometimes I think folks just don't understand how much work coaches do between games and to prepare for games, how much information they must digest and be able to use during a game, how thus what seems common sensical to fans may just be wrong to the informed professional coaching staff.

[stellation]

Great recap on nba.com right now. No workflow to throw this through an editor? This guy should be whacking some emoticons in there too!

PHOENIX, Jan. 12 (AP) -- Steve Nash scored 26 of his season-high 35 points in the second half and the Suns beat the Milwaukee Bucks in Phoenix for the 20th consecutive time, 122-114, on Friday night.

Nash was 11-of-13 shooting, 4-of-5 of them 3s, in the final two quarters, showing no effect from the stomach flu that had kept him out of Thursday night's loss in Utah. Amare Stoudemire had 31 points and Boris Diaw, starting while Grant Hill recovers from an appendectomy, had a season-best 21 points and 11 rebounds.

Andrew Bogut made 14-of-16 shots, all near the basket, for a career-best 29 points to lead the Bucks, who were playing one night after losing 110-105 against the Lakers in Los Angeles. Michael Redd added 18 points, but on 5-of-16 shooting in his first start in six games.

Redd sat out five with a deep thigh bruise, then came off the bench against the Lakers. Charlie Bell also scored 18 and Bobby Simmons for the Bucks, who lost despite shooting 56 percent.

The Suns shot 57 percent in a game that featured little defense.

The Bucks were up by as many as 10 points and led 68-61 after a first half. But Phoenix outscored the Milwaukee 35-18 in the third quarter, finishing it with a 13-3 run to lead 96-86 entering the fourth.

Milwaukee hasn't won in Phoenix since Feb. 21, 1987.

[paulpressey25]

I'm just glad that Bogut got some big "stats" to get his confidence back up....and Bobby as well. Those guys now need to translate it over against other teams.

Epi...I'm not sure the offensive outburst was a function of pace. I think it was a function of the Bucks players for most of the first half not having their shots contested...nor their passes contested....guys were just comfortable taking wide open shots the Suns were giving them without any worries....the whole team was relaxed.

[europa]

epi, I think most of us are well aware that every head coach puts in a lot of time and there's no question Krystkowiak knows his players better than any of us do. But that said, there are times when coaches - like players - make mistakes. Tonight a mistake was made in my opinion. Bogut was dominant in the post for three quarters and even upon his initial return to the game in the fourth. But in the final few minutes he spent most of his time at the high post setting picks and was not given a chance to receive the ball in the post where he had been dominant the entire game. I cannot think of a single good reason why he wasn't given such an opportunity with the game on the line given how he was by far the Bucks' best and most consistent offensive player in this game.

[Epicurus]

I think pace is correlated with uncontested shots (both ways)

[paul]

Not just aiming at you, Paul, but sometimes I think folks just don't understand how much work coaches do between games and to prepare for games, how much information they must digest and be able to use during a game, how thus what seems common sensical to fans may just be wrong to the informed professional coaching staff.

I understand that you have extensive inside knowledge of the coaching game Epi and respect your views on it, but i say again there is no defence from not at least trying to go to Bogut down the stretch tonight. We went to him twice and two scores resulted, and very little else was working. If someone else got hot or a particular strategy was working well then go with it, but that didn't happen, yet we still didn't go to our hot guy. It's not like he started being shut down, missing or giving turnovers.

[Chuck Diesel]

Yeah that can

[Epicurus]

No, europa, I don't believe many understand the tremendous amount of information gathering and processing done by NBA coaching staffs. It is nothing like even college level. But yes, mistakes by coaches are made every game (nearly 200 gross possessions). But before assuming a mistake, an attempt to understand the probable decisional factors being faced may be beneficial. Thus here I proposed the adjusted means for double teaming the post and the coaching staff's beliefs regarding AB's ability to counter and alternative ways for the team to counter.

[stellation]

Is Jake still injured or are we just seeing Ruffin over Jake? I actually kind of liked Jake in the minutes he was getting.

Is Gadzuric suiting up for these games too? WTF is going on there? Is he so awful we aren't even showcasing him (I realize that getting him to maybe catch the ball under the hoop and dunk it is the best showcasing we can do with Dan at times)? How much is Dan getting paid?

[europa]

No, europa, I don't believe many understand the tremendous amount of information gathering and processing done by NBA coaching staffs. It is nothing like even college level. But yes, mistakes by coaches are made every game (nearly 200 gross possessions). But before assuming a mistake, an attempt to understand the probable decisional factors being faced may be beneficial. Thus here I proposed the adjusted means for double teaming the post and the coaching staff's beliefs regarding AB's ability to counter and alternative ways for the team to counter.

And what myself and others have been saying is Bogut wasn't even put in the post at all to see if any attempt at a double team would occur. If Krystkowiak refrained from going to Bogut in the post for fear of something that hadn't even happened, then it's an even bigger mistake. That's called coaching scared and it's weakening your team's chances to win by avoiding your highest probable option for success (which tonight was Bogut in the post).

We all know that Bogut hasn't been a consistent post presence. But tonight he was ridiculously dominant. The Suns could not at any point in the game stop him. He was playing like a Hall of Famer against them. There simply was no good reason why he wasn't even given a single opportunity in the post in the final 2-3 minutes. There just isn't.