HOU-UTA trade (Boozer & Okur 4 Ming & Battier)

[Luv those Knicks]

Houston keeps Ming, Battier - Utah keeps Boozer and Okur. Utah beats Houston in the playoffs again. The fact that the Jazz would also trade Brewer for Head makes this a laughable trade. The trade would place Battier in the mix with AK and Harp and Korver's minutes, so that doesn't work, and Head would have to compete with Miles and Korver and maybe even Almond for minutes @ the 2, so this doesn't really make the Jazz better at all.

This may belong on the player comparison board, but for what it's worth

Statistically:

Boozer Ming

ppg - 23.3 21.8
rpg - 10.8 10.4
apg - 2.9 2.5
fg % - 55% 49%
blk - .50 2.3
stl - 1.36 .51
to - 2.6 3.4

Ming has a clear advantage in blocks, and is inferior to Boozer in each of the other significant categories listed here, and Ming plays 2 minutes per game more than Boozer.

That's true,

but Ming is 7'6 - you can't teach that. And defense really is almost half the game. That's why good defensive teams (Jordan Bulls, the Ben Wallace Pistons, Houston Rockets, Spurs) - are so often at the right end of a Championship. Only a handful of bad or average defensive teams won it all - the recent heat team is one, the Showtime Laker teams weren't much on D, but overall, D counts. That, and the fact that Yao is a tougher Guard than Boozer and he alters shots as well as blocks them, I don't think it's close. Personally, I wouldn't trade Yao for 2 Boozers (assuming the 2nd boozer played SF or SG or something like that).

[RoxFan08]

Houston keeps Ming, Battier - Utah keeps Boozer and Okur. Utah beats Houston in the playoffs again. The fact that the Jazz would also trade Brewer for Head makes this a laughable trade. The trade would place Battier in the mix with AK and Harp and Korver's minutes, so that doesn't work, and Head would have to compete with Miles and Korver and maybe even Almond for minutes @ the 2, so this doesn't really make the Jazz better at all.

This may belong on the player comparison board, but for what it's worth

Statistically:

Boozer Ming

ppg - 23.3 21.8
rpg - 10.8 10.4
apg - 2.9 2.5
fg % - 55% 49%
blk - .50 2.3
stl - 1.36 .51
to - 2.6 3.4

Ming has a clear advantage in blocks, and is inferior to Boozer in each of the other significant categories listed here, and Ming plays 2 minutes per game more than Boozer.

If you pace adjust, Yao beets Boozer in everything but turnovers, steals and FG%. Its also worth pointing out you didn't add in FT% or TS%. Yao beats Boozer easily in the 1st, not sure about the second. Boozer is playing with his other star, Yao isn't atm. Boozer also doesn't have a great rebounder next to him to take rebounds (Chuck Hayes is among the leaders in rebounds per minute, while Okur barely gets any)

Yao>>>>>Boozer.

[sendai91]

Agreed, Boozer isn't a defensive star, and the Jazz suffer sometimes because of it. But, as was proven in the playoffs against the same Rockets last year, Boozer more all-around game propelled the Jazz past Yao and the Rockets, although it was very close. The pace adjust comment doesn't make any sense, Yao plays more mins than Boozer, and scores less, rebounds less, shoots a lesser %, steals less and assists less. Granted, he is a real defensive presence under the hoop but you could certainly make the argument though that Yao's lack of mobility cost Houston the playoff series last year. I think that these two players are very close, but the rest of the trade is awful for the Jazz.

[RoxFan08]

Agreed, Boozer isn't a defensive star, and the Jazz suffer sometimes because of it. But, as was proven in the playoffs against the same Rockets last year, Boozer more all-around game propelled the Jazz past Yao and the Rockets, although it was very close. The pace adjust comment doesn't make any sense, Yao plays more mins than Boozer, and scores less, rebounds less, shoots a lesser %, steals less and assists less. Granted, he is a real defensive presence under the hoop but you could certainly make the argument though that Yao's lack of mobility cost Houston the playoff series last year. I think that these two players are very close, but the rest of the trade is awful for the Jazz.

PACE MATTERS! More possessions (faster tempo) means more points, more rebounds, more assists, more misses, more turnovers, steals, blocks, shot attempts, etc.

As has been shown, some teams don't match up well against others. Utah has big men who jumpshoot, and Yao's limited mobility doesn't allow him to contest that. Utah matches up well against Houston. Teams with more mobile centers can crush Utah, but may have a hard time against Houston.

And the series was STILL very close. And don't forget we blew you out on your home court earlier this season.

[KyleCleric]

it is not about talent, but value. IMO, they probably have very similar effect on winning and losing, but Yao clearly has the appearance of having a greater positive effect on the game. Being 7'+ and incredibly talented does that for you. Yao is impossible to trade out there. There are just a handful of players that Houston would be willing to trade him for, but none of them are available.

[stevebozell]

Pace adjust?? With Yao?? Thats hilarious! Yao only can play at one pace, which is one of the negatives against him....SLOW. Thats hilarious.

[RoxFan08]

Pace adjust?? With Yao?? Thats hilarious! Yao only can play at one pace, which is one of the negatives against him....SLOW. Thats hilarious.

GOD, the IDIOCY of some people on this board.

Allright smart***, let me lay it out for you so you can understand:

Pace adjusted NUMBERS! Boozer's numbers are in some areas better than Yao's because they play AT A FASTER PACE! If there are a 100 available rebounds and you get 10 of them, is that better than having 50 available rebounds and getting 8? OF COURSE NOT!

Boozer's stats are INFLATED, which is why for comparison purposes, to get an accurate measurement, those numbers are adjusted to reduce error.

Pace adjusted, Yao's statistics show he's a better player. BUT EVERYONE ALREADY KNEW THAT!

Yao being slow still isn't an argument that Yao is worse than Boozer. Basically everyone REASONABLE on this board has come to the conclusion that Boozer really isn't close to Yao. Offensively he may be approaching parity with Yao. Defensively, its not close. Impact wise, its not close. Value wise, ITS NOT CLOSE!

/end rant

[TaylorJ]

I think we all know what pace-adjusted numbers are, the point he is making is that Yao's number wouldn't be that much different if he played on a team with more possessions because Yao can't play that type of game. Coaches generally have their teams play to the strength of their best players (in Houston's situation - Yao and T-mac for the Jazz - D-Will and Boozer). Isn't Aldeman known for being an offensive coach who plays a fast-paced game? However, he adjusted his style of play to better fit the players he has. Yao is a great player, but he obviously isn't as good as Booze in a faster paced game. Just like it's ridiculous to say that Boozer is a better defender than Yao because he averages more steals. No way the Rockets do this, but it has nothing to do with the fact that Yao's numbers should be pace adjusted. Also, Boozer plays with Millsap and AK (not just Okur), so he does have some players around him who rebound well.

[sendai91]

to say that Boozer's numbers are inflated because he plays on a faster-paced team is silly and short-sighted. Are Nash's numbers inflated for the same reason? Do we discredit his production or MVP awards for the same reason? of course not. My original point still stands, this is not a good trade at all for the Jazz. That doesn't mean that Yao isn't a great player, he is, but I'd rather have Boozer that does a little more of everything than Yao does in fewer minutes, regardless of pace or tempo. Just look back at the 7th game of the playoff series last year (esp. the last 5 minutes) if more explanation is needed. (Boozer - 35 pts, 14 rb, 5 ast, Yao 29 pt, 6 rb, 0 ast) You keep the slow-footed statue, we'll keep our less defensively-oriented player. Look forward to meeting you again in the playoffs this year.

[Mr. E]

You can adjust as many numbers as you like, but the bottom line is that Yao Ming's inclusion makes this an instant "No" from Houston.

Not happening.

[jazzfan1971]

I thought OKur > Ming in the playoffs last year when we faced off.

[RoxFan08]

I thought OKur > Ming in the playoffs last year when we faced off.

And that is relevant how? Okur SUCKS this year. Battier outplayed Kobe one time. Does that make him better?

[babyjax13]

lol @ Jazz fans, don't even try to argue that Yao is not significantly better than Boozer...

I wouldn't say he's better because they play different positions, but I will agree he is more "valueble" because he is the best center in the nba.

[VintaGe36]

Boozer is an ELITE post scorer, and a mis match nightmare.

With that said, you could argue that he is a better post scorer than Yao, but even than, its negligible, or debatable from both ends, however the gap on D? WAYYY too big to ignore.

Yao > Boozer

/thread

[Mr. E]

I thought OKur > Ming in the playoffs last year when we faced off.

But you don't change up your team - especially shuffle off your key player - based off of one playoff series. I'll take Yao in the long run, thank you!

[red4hf]

I love the argument, "Yao is taller he must be better", that's the kind of reasoning that had Sam Bowie go before Michael Jordan.........

Yao is a great Center, but to say he's substantially better than Boozer is dumb....... Yao doesn't get his teams any more wins than Carlos...... Just because Tao gets a couple of more blocks? Please...... Just because he's taller? Yeah right, taller players are always going to be better than the short ones.......

This trade would never happen since teams don't trade their franchise players, but to say that Ming is that much more valuable than Boozer is a joke.......

[RoxFan08]

I love the argument, "Yao is taller he must be better", that's the kind of reasoning that had Sam Bowie go before Michael Jordan.........

Yao is a great Center, but to say he's substantially better than Boozer is dumb....... Yao doesn't get his teams any more wins than Carlos...... Just because Tao gets a couple of more blocks? Please...... Just because he's taller? Yeah right, taller players are always going to be better than the short ones.......

This trade would never happen since teams don't trade their franchise players, but to say that Ming is that much more valuable than Boozer is a joke.......

You're logic (riddled with holes as it is) boils down to: Yao is taller than Boozer, and height doesn't really mean that much. I agree with you that blocks are a terrible and generally meaningless way of measuring a player's defensive worth, but Yao is easily among the best big man defenders, as well as having an extremely developed and efficient post game. Boozer is a pretty terrible defender.

The guy earlier in the thread talked a lot about stats, but as I'll say again, Boozer's stats are pace inflated over Yao's. More availability may lead to bigger numbers, but just because Boozer gets more points/rebound/assists per game doesn't mean he is a better scorer, rebounder, or passer than Yao. In fact, I'd take Yao in ALL 3 categories.

[VintaGe36]

I love the argument, "Yao is taller he must be better", that's the kind of reasoning that had Sam Bowie go before Michael Jordan.........

Yao is a great Center, but to say he's substantially better than Boozer is dumb....... Yao doesn't get his teams any more wins than Carlos...... Just because Tao gets a couple of more blocks? Please...... Just because he's taller? Yeah right, taller players are always going to be better than the short ones.......

This trade would never happen since teams don't trade their franchise players, but to say that Ming is that much more valuable than Boozer is a joke.......

NO NO NO.

To say Yao is MUCH more TALENTED, maybe is a joke, depending on who you ask.

However in terms of "value" Yao >> Boozer and its not close.

[stevebozell]

I think we all know what pace-adjusted numbers are, the point he is making is that Yao's number wouldn't be that much different if he played on a team with more possessions because Yao can't play that type of game.

Thats exactly my point. The idocy of some jack asses on this board is beyond belief. If he's trying to say the Jazz are a run and gun team, he hasnt watched a single game they have played and oughtta quit calling other people dumb ass. The whole point is, its Yao's own damn fault they play slow down, because, and here's the news flash appareantly. YAO IS SLOW! Utah doesnt run and gun, not to mention they have more weapons than Houston does which means Yao should get more of a percentage of the opportunities than Boozer does.

[BrooklynBulls]

I love the argument, "Yao is taller he must be better", that's the kind of reasoning that had Sam Bowie go before Michael Jordan.........

Yao is a great Center, but to say he's substantially better than Boozer is dumb....... Yao doesn't get his teams any more wins than Carlos...... Just because Tao gets a couple of more blocks? Please...... Just because he's taller? Yeah right, taller players are always going to be better than the short ones.......

This trade would never happen since teams don't trade their franchise players, but to say that Ming is that much more valuable than Boozer is a joke.......

You misspelled his name. It's spelled YAO. It's in all caps b/c he's ****ing huge.