Trap Ben Gordon in practice, and other thoughts

[MGB8]

Ben Gordon is a decent ball handler. Now, he's too upright when he dribbles most of the time (that can be fixed), and his passing instinct isn't great (practice helps with that, too), but the big thing that he needs to work on, right now, is beating the trap.

It seems that any time the trap comes on Gordon, he almost panicks. He doesn't use his arms to draw fouls (probably for fear of exposing the ball too much), and the entire Bulls team is awful at knowing how to get open when the trap comes (it's the undefended man's primary responsibility).

This has been an issue all season, so the question is - do they practice this? I would have Kirk or Duhon defend Gordon (or maybe Thabo), and then have Tyrus, Noc or Deng trap him ten times every practice, until Gordon can learn what he needs to do to beat it, and until others learn where they need to go to help Gordon beat the trap.

The same is somewhat true for Kirk, but Gordon is more likely to pick up his dribble.

The Bulls need to know by the end of the season if Gordon is in their plans or not. The only way to really see what they have is to see if he can develop as a PG. If he can't - and he really has not been given a shot at it - then you need to look for a sign and trade or be very careful about how much you spend. If he can, then you have a player to sign at around the money that he wants.

Although if he misses as many easy jump shots as he did last night...

Other thoughts:

Thabo looked good at SF, again. Don't give up on him... he's just a slow learner. Tyrus looks better as a tiny center than as a large SF. Grey needs to get minutes to develop on defense and passing - he adds a new dimension when he's in that takes a lot of pressure off everyone else. I wanted some more Noah... darn discipline.

[kulaz3000]

Im sure they do all those things in practise. But its hard to simulate what will happen in real games, with different talent level, different atmosphere, and the pressure level.

Gordon could be excellent at avoiding the traps in practise but it doesn't mean it would translate well into real games with a different opponent.

The problem with Gordon is that he has poor recognisition when it comes to reading the defense. I think a big part of the problem is that he is short, and most teams put bigger players on him, thus his vision is somewhat impeded.

Also the Gordon debate about whether he can play point guard. I think he has played a vast amount of mintues at that position already and its clear that he would be capable. But he would be in the mold of a scoring point guard. A Marbury or an Iverson type of point guard. They will get you the points and the assists, but at the expense of the other players around him being better. Well he dominates the ball, its about him getting off in the game and as opposed to the team benefiting.

[MGB8]

I disagree. Kobe Bryant, for example, when he wants to, gets other players involved. Generally, that's because he's coached to do just that.

Ben Gordon has been coached to be a scorer first, second, and last. He hasn't been asked to go out there, try to get other people involved first, and only take clear, good shots on offense or when time is running down or the Bulls need a big shot.

When he's the primary ball handler, the game plan seem to be - Gordon is going to go out there and try to score, and everyone else is the back up plan. And I don't think that is Gordon doing that - I think that is by design.

Regardless, I don't know that Gordon has poor anticipation. He moves the ball fine and he has shown nice and creative passes. However, he consistently reacts poorly to the trap. That's something that you can coach, but it doesn't seem to be being done.

[kulaz3000]

But Kobe is just an elite talent and he has basketball instincts that Gordon doesn't and will never possess. So you really can't compare the two. Plus, Kobe is a scorer but he has a great overall game where he is able to do those things, whereas Gordon is not.

The reason why he asked to shoot when given the ball handling duties is to score, because that is far and beyond his greatest strength he has in his arsenal. Sure, he makes a few snazzy passes, but so does anybody, it doesn't mean that they can be a play-marker in this league. He isn't a great ball handler, along with he is as quick as people thinks he is(espically for a player of his size), and the fact that he has such poor recognisition of defenses makes it even more difficult for him to make the right plays.

He just isn't creative enough to consistently make plays for other people(to make the other players better) on the floor for him to be the primary ball handler for a successful team, in my opinion. And i don't think you can coach things like instinctively being able to read the defense in pressure situation etc. Great players are able to read situations before it happens instinctively, where as other players regardless of how many times they practise it doesn't translate into a real game in a real un-simulated situation.

When its all said and done, Gordon is a pure scorer and a very good one at that.

On another note, i think he should consider shedding some of his weight and muscle mass. I honestly think his game would be much more improved with more quickness added to his game. Sure, his defense make be compromised somewhat, but i think his overall game would benefit. He is capable of being explosive, but after the initial move, he is easy to be caught up with because he isn't that fast. Because if you think about it, he is big and really built like a rock but he doesn't use it, so whats the point? He doesn't post up. He doesn't use it to absorb contact whilst finishing in the lane consistently. Id prefer he'd shed some of the muscle mass off to gain more quickness and speed.

[The 6ft Hurdle]

Im sure they do all those things in practise. But its hard to simulate what will happen in real games, with different talent level, different atmosphere, and the pressure level.

Gordon could be excellent at avoiding the traps in practise but it doesn't mean it would translate well into real games with a different opponent.

The problem with Gordon is that he has poor recognisition when it comes to reading the defense. I think a big part of the problem is that he is short, and most teams put bigger players on him, thus his vision is somewhat impeded.

Also the Gordon debate about whether he can play point guard. I think he has played a vast amount of mintues at that position already and its clear that he would be capable.

But he would be in the mold of a scoring point guard. A Marbury or an Iverson type of point guard. They will get you the points and the assists, but at the expense of the other players around him being better. Well he dominates the ball, its about him getting off in the game and as opposed to the team benefiting.

Where do you base this off of? I've watched the same mistakes that you have, but you seem to think he's fixed in his ways.

Seems like you're digging for reasons not to do something so he doesn't replace another player's role who in your POV is something not to be tinkered with.

Your description actually seems to describe Hinrich more accurately.

What makes you think were going anywhere with him as point guard?

What is our record again when he gets 10 assists or more? Last I remember it was hovering around sub-500. Not the greatest option either.

Example: Kirk hits a shot. Next time down the floor, perhaps sensing that he like Ben Gordon can get hot, he brings the ball down again. Without any hesitation and anyone else touching the ball, he takes a running shot. Clank.

When he hits even one shot, there's a good chance he's going to shoot again. When Ben Gordon misses a shot, especially during a pressure situation, Kirk often takes a shot next time down the court, usually off-balance. And it's baffling, because there are plenty of open shots he passes up that he should take.

The only reason Kirk isn't considered a scoring point guard and passes so much is not so much that he's a pass-first point guard, but it's because he can't score.

[kulaz3000]

Your description actually seems to describe Hinrich more accurately.

What makes you think were going anywhere with him as point guard?

Thats funny, i didn't realize i made one single comment about Kirk in my post. Yet you want to make this a Kirk vs Gordon debate. Why can't we talk about Gordon without having to talk about Kirk? It seems that some people are just incapable of that.

[MGB8]

I understand why he made the comment. Kulaz, you are arguing that Gordon can't do something when he hasn't really been tried at it. Sure, Kobe is a better basketball player, but Gordon has shown flashes of nice passes and moving the ball around.

Meanwhile, the problem with not trying Gordon in this role is very much about Kirk. Kirk HAS been tried at PG, tried to be made a pass first guy, for several seasons, and there is something missing. Right now, there really isn't a different result between Kirk and Gordon when each plays PG - except for when Gordon is told to go out and score first.

So why not try something else. Yes, Gordon's shooting ability is his greatest strength. Just like Tyrus Thomas' rebounding or Deng's mid range shooting. But the key in developing players is to get them to expand their games. That won't change the main strength, but it will help them and the team down the line.

[fudgie]

If (more like when) the youth movement comes this season I would want to see a Gordon-Thabo starting backcourt. They compliment each other well and Du and Hinrich haven't been doing anything special this season. In a way playing Gordon at the point would be part of the youth movement because we would be develping his point guard skills.

I don't know if Gordon can be successful as a full time PG, but it's time we found out.

[bre9]

I believe his teammates give him the ball in the wrong places. His teammates should know by now that Gordon is the leading scorer for this team and that teams our going to double him. In the Philly game that was a bad pass by Kirk to give Ben the ball on the baseline. Even if the coach drawed it up still Kirk should know better. Gordon needs to be smarter too in those situations like throw the ball off there leg or something or call a timeout. Gordon also needs react to the defense better and his teammates needs to come closer to him when he's traped.

[The 6ft Hurdle]

I understand why he made the comment. Kulaz, you are arguing that Gordon can't do something when he hasn't really been tried at it. Sure, Kobe is a better basketball player, but Gordon has shown flashes of nice passes and moving the ball around.

Meanwhile, the problem with not trying Gordon in this role is very much about Kirk. Kirk HAS been tried at PG, tried to be made a pass first guy, for several seasons, and there is something missing. Right now, there really isn't a different result between Kirk and Gordon when each plays PG - except for when Gordon is told to go out and score first.

So why not try something else. Yes, Gordon's shooting ability is his greatest strength. Just like Tyrus Thomas' rebounding or Deng's mid range shooting. But the key in developing players is to get them to expand their games. That won't change the main strength, but it will help them and the team down the line.

Yes, thank you MGB8, this explains what I was trying to say.

Sorry Kulaz, I didn't mean to drag Kirk into this, but I'm thinking why the heck NOT play Ben at point guard more often?

The key question is: Is what were currently doing working?

Obviously, from my point of view, not really. I think we could be doing much better and make sure everyone else does better.

I see the same weaknesses in Ben Gordon as you do: shaky ballhandling, shaky passes, and yes, key turnovers at key moments, but I also don't recall him necessarily dominating the ball and not making his teammates better.

In fact, I think it's the other way around. It seems like everyone gets in rhythm when he gets in rhythm as the ballhandler. In that loss against the Magic where Gordon made those shots, I actually saw Ben Wallace caring about basketball.

I still vividly remember game 1 of the 2006 series against the Heat where he played point guard, got 35 points, kept the game close, and some of the games this season where he's played the position.

It's about incorporating him into the offense and NOT specializing him into a catch and shoot role. When you pinch him into that role, then of course he's going to be inconsistent cause that's not his entire game.

On games we do that and his shot is not on and we don't make any adjustments, you can be sure that he's on his way to a mediocre-crappy game where he will eventually try to do too much and then amplify his mistakes.

If scoring is "all" that he's good at, then we might as well get his ability all the chances it needs and not make him waste energy by chasing chances.

At any rate, I don't think Gordon's production under Boylan has been too bad, but it seems to be tapering off and there isn't as much excitement or confidence anymore, and perhaps that's having an adverse effect on our 4th quarter defense.

[DanTown8587]

I think Kirk and Ben are two really overrated guards in the respect that Kirk picks up terrible fouls, shoots a terrible percentage, cannot create offense and over dribbles. Gordon also cannot create a legitimate scoring chance, when he drives rarely gets to the line or makes the basket, is a total liability on the defensive end and has too many games where he does not score and is unable to help the team in any other way. A good team can survive with Kirk OR Ben as their main guard, but the two together just magnify their short comings. If Ben Gordon wants to get paid 5-55, go find some team willing to pay that because you cannot seriously tell me he is worth that. Nor that Kirk was worth his contract.

[BULLHITTER]

I think Kirk and Ben are two really overrated guards in the respect that Kirk picks up terrible fouls, shoots a terrible percentage, cannot create offense and over dribbles. Gordon also cannot create a legitimate scoring chance, when he drives rarely gets to the line or makes the basket, is a total liability on the defensive end and has too many games where he does not score and is unable to help the team in any other way. A good team can survive with Kirk OR Ben as their main guard, but the two together just magnify their short comings. If Ben Gordon wants to get paid 5-55, go find some team willing to pay that because you cannot seriously tell me he is worth that. Nor that Kirk was worth his contract.

after having read a number of posts via this author, i'm questioning whether some fans actually watch the games or just see sportscenter highlights to make such ridiculous assertions. to a man, the larger majority of posters will support the fact that while gordon is not an all-league defender, he's far better than he's ever been, is pretty consistent on the offensive end ("too many games where he doesn't score"?) and does attempt to drive to the hole more than any of the bulls other guards.

opinions like these just illustrate the growing frustration with the team's current state however they damage poster crediblity because they lack any factual evidence of what's actually happening on the court.

i see why they closed the other threads.

[bulletbill]

Ben Gordon is a decent ball handler. Now, he's too upright when he dribbles most of the time (that can be fixed), and his passing instinct isn't great (practice helps with that, too), but the big thing that he needs to work on, right now, is beating the trap.

This has been an issue all season, so the question is - do they practice this? I would have Kirk or Duhon defend Gordon (or maybe Thabo), and then have Tyrus, Noc or Deng trap him ten times every practice, until Gordon can learn what he needs to do to beat it, and until others learn where they need to go to help Gordon beat the trap.

The Bulls need to know by the end of the season if Gordon is in their plans or not. The only way to really see what they have is to see if he can develop as a PG. If he can't - and he really has not been given a shot at it - then you need to look for a sign and trade or be very careful about how much you spend. If he can, then you have a player to sign at around the money that he wants.

I've always thought that for the Bulls to get the most out of lil Ben, to maximize every ounce of talent, is for him to develop his PG game. I really can't assume what they practice because I don't have a clue... but, I am a bit disappointed that he hasn't developed as well in this area as I expected out of him by now. Does this lack of progression have anything to do with Kirk? Is Gordon instructed to focus on another part of his game instead? Can't say for sure. I do think its ultimately up to the player if he wants to expand his game and become more of a complete player.

Semi OT thoughts: I believe BG should handle the ball more and become more of a scoring PG, even more than he currently is. I also think that for an ideal Bulls backcourt, that they need a bigger sized combo guard who can play D. Basically, a bigger version of Kirk Hinrich. Andre Igoudala is the ideal guard to play next to lil Ben, but that's a pipe dream ATM.