ORL/SAC

[Smills91]

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You are missing the point. Sure, if all goes well you could squeak into the playoffs. But, last I checked it was about winning titles. You should either be rebuilding or a title contender, Sacto and Indy haven't gotten this message yet.

Look, only 1 team wins it. So are you saying if you're not a top 5 candidate don't try? I mean com'n. What kind of attitude is that? The Kings are a lot better than their record shows. They're a deep team. There are things that need to be improved that playoff experience brings to young players. If the Kings squeak into a 7th or 8th seed, they could actually be a dangerous team, because they'd be playing at a top 4-5 level in the west in order to obtain that seed. Similar to two years when the Kings gave the Spurs a run for their money.

It's not all or nothing. The Kings definitely need to improve in areas like rebounding, committing fewer turnovers, defense etc...but those don't happen over night.

Some panic move to take on half of a player's worth is what gets you in the babcock, billy king, billy knight, isiah thomas level of management. It's STUPID.

[Cammo101]

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Look, only 1 team wins it. So are you saying if you're not a top 5 candidate don't try? I mean com'n. What kind of attitude is that? The Kings are a lot better than their record shows. They're a deep team. There are things that need to be improved that playoff experience brings to young players. If the Kings squeak into a 7th or 8th seed, they could actually be a dangerous team, because they'd be playing at a top 4-5 level in the west in order to obtain that seed. Similar to two years when the Kings gave the Spurs a run for their money.

It's not all or nothing. The Kings definitely need to improve in areas like rebounding, committing fewer turnovers, defense etc...but those don't happen over night.

Some panic move to take on half of a player's worth is what gets you in the babcock, billy king, billy knight, isiah thomas level of management. It's STUPID.

I'm not saying if you are not a top 5 team rebuild, because you can get better and become that sometimes. But, at a certain point it becomes very obvious that a team is just treading water and isn't gonna win a title with their current makeup. At that point, you have to do something to change that, even if it means breaking up a 40 win team and rebuilding. Look at Memphis, they snuck into the playoffs with no chance of going anywhere for a while, realized this, and have rebuilt. They are in a much better place now than they were then. Teams like Indy and Sacramento who are happy with 8 seeds are the best thing that can happen to the other teams in the league, because you won't be stealing the bad teams draft spot, and you won't be worry the good teams in the playoffs.

[Smills91]

Here's my rebuttal to your proposal...if you want Garcia.

Kenny Thomas/Francisco Garcia for Arroyo/Garrity

Since it's absolutely ridiculous for you to think you could get Brad Miller AND Francisco Garcia for basically expirings here's the alternative.

You get someone who as a young starter has shown the ability to fill up the stat sheet in the absence of Artest/Bibby/Martin this season. He's a quality young player who's still on his rookie deal. Kenny Thomas' deal sucks, but you're not giving up anything remotely valuable to acquire Garcia either. Kings lose Kenny's deal to accelerate the rebuild. Magic also add some frontcourt depth to their roster which they currently lack. That's a much more fair, balanced and realistic proposal if the Magic don't want to give anything of remote worth away.

[Bac2Basics]

Here's my rebuttal to your proposal...if you want Garcia.

Kenny Thomas/Francisco Garcia for Arroyo/Garrity

Since it's absolutely ridiculous for you to think you could get Brad Miller AND Francisco Garcia for basically expirings here's the alternative.

You get someone who as a young starter has shown the ability to fill up the stat sheet in the absence of Artest/Bibby/Martin this season. He's a quality young player who's still on his rookie deal. Kenny Thomas' deal sucks, but you're not giving up anything remotely valuable to acquire Garcia either. Kings lose Kenny's deal to accelerate the rebuild. Magic also add some frontcourt depth to their roster which they currently lack. That's a much more fair, balanced and realistic proposal if the Magic don't want to give anything of remote worth away.

As interesting as the idea is from a SAC point of view, I don't think most of the league would say that Garcia alone is enough to move KT.

I was thinking a Miller/SAR package might be a little more realistic.

[Smills91]

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As interesting as the idea is from a SAC point of view, I don't think most of the league would say that Garcia alone is enough to move KT.

I was thinking a Miller/SAR package might be a little more realistic.

what? why? what does that accomplish...pure cap space for talented players without deadweight involved is dumb. If you changed SAR to Kenny, I can see it, but not with SAR.

[Cammo101]

The sooner you realize no one is taking Kenny Thomas off your hands, the sooner we can get to the real trade proposals. The fact of the matter is if you aren't rebuilding, then Garcia is just a backup until he bolts town. Cause he sure won't be starting ahead of Artest and Martin.

[KF10]

The sooner you realize no one is taking Kenny Thomas off your hands, the sooner we can get to the real trade proposals. The fact of the matter is if you aren't rebuilding, then Garcia is just a backup until he bolts town. Cause he sure won't be starting ahead of Artest and Martin.

So, what's wrong as being backup to either of those player? He is versatile to be back up to the 1/2/3/4 (Small ball) positions... He will get his minutes regardless, IMO....

[Smills91]

Oh great so now Ron will bolt, Garcia will bolt, Bibby will bolt, how much sooner until we start hearing that Hawes will bolt. I mean how many players really move via FA in today's NBA. A handful of players, yet every time someone wants a Kings player you hear, "You should trade em now for 25 cents on the dollar now, before he bolts as a free agent sooner or later".

Give me a break. Garcia has a big future in Sacramento. He's been putting up 15-20 points each game since being a starter the past month or so. Gimme a break. Expirings and your GUARANTEED $ of an early 2nd rounder isn't going to cut it for Brad/Garcia.

The only reason expirings are appealing to the Kings is to move a bad contract. The Kings have exactly ONE BAD contract and that's Kenny Thomas.

The sooner you realize that TALENT >>> cap space. Cap space is nice, but only when couple WITH talent...a la the Kevin Garnett trade. I don't consider JJ Redick(who's an inferior version of Quincy Douby) and a near second rounder as TALENT.

[sackings916]

The sooner you realize no one is taking Kenny Thomas off your hands, the sooner we can get to the real trade proposals. The fact of the matter is if you aren't rebuilding, then Garcia is just a backup until he bolts town. Cause he sure won't be starting ahead of Artest and Martin.

So is your proposal one of those "real trade proposals"?

More like Orlando getting 2 starters for their garbage and a late 1st.

[Cammo101]

Oh great so now Ron will bolt, Garcia will bolt, Bibby will bolt, how much sooner until we start hearing that Hawes will bolt. I mean how many players really move via FA in today's NBA. A handful of players, yet every time someone wants a Kings player you hear, "You should trade em now for 25 cents on the dollar now, before he bolts as a free agent sooner or later".

Give me a break. Garcia has a big future in Sacramento. He's been putting up 15-20 points each game since being a starter the past month or so. Gimme a break. Expirings and your GUARANTEED $ of an early 2nd rounder isn't going to cut it for Brad/Garcia.

The only reason expirings are appealing to the Kings is to move a bad contract. The Kings have exactly ONE BAD contract and that's Kenny Thomas.

The sooner you realize that TALENT >>> cap space. Cap space is nice, but only when couple WITH talent...a la the Kevin Garnett trade. I don't consider JJ Redick(who's an inferior version of Quincy Douby) and a near second rounder as TALENT.

He will bolt if he is still gonna be a backup. Good players dont hang around and back people up their whole career. Unless they can win a ring doing it. Of course if Sacto would rebuild and trade Artest, this wouldn't be a problem.

[Cammo101]

The sooner you realize that TALENT >>> cap space. Cap space is nice, but only when couple WITH talent...a la the Kevin Garnett trade. I don't consider JJ Redick(who's an inferior version of Quincy Douby) and a near second rounder as TALENT.

If there is so much talent on Sacramento then why haven't they been good since Webber left? Artest, Bibby, Miller, Garcia, Martin, Salmons, Hawes, Douby, SAR...if these guys are all so good that people should want to trade for them then why can't they win?

Possibly because your overvaluing all your players.

[Cammo101]

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So is your proposal one of those "real trade proposals"?

More like Orlando getting 2 starters for their garbage and a late 1st.

Expirings aren't garbage to teams smart enough to know when to rebuild.

[KF10]

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If there is so much talent on Sacramento then why haven't they been good since Webber left? Artest, Bibby, Miller, Garcia, Martin, Salmons, Hawes, Douby, SAR...if these guys are all so good that people should want to trade for them then why can't they win?

Possibly because your overvaluing all your players.

The thing is that we NEVER had a healthy lineup since 2005-06(The only time we were healthy is when we acquire Artest and made a late playoff run; we were 28-12 or so during that last half of the season) . We will have a healthy lineup for the first time by by mid Januray or so....

This is my response on the other thread:

We are decimated by injuries this year. (Losing 4 legit starters: Bibby/Martin/Artest/SAR) Also, Artest didnt play for the first 7 games due to that suspension. Brad Miller really stepped it up this season. The bench really stepped it up. Salmons, Garcia, and Beno are the ones improved alot. We should be proud where we at right now. Losing our best players should guaranteed us for the #1 pick but we are not. We fight hard every night despite competition. We dont get blown out like others assume...


When this team is healthy we are a playoff team (6/7/8 seeds) look back when we were truly healthy. It was that one half of the season when we got Artest. We were like 28-12 for that last half of the season and went to the playoffs... The last 2 years IMO were flukes due to key injuries in the worst situations... When we get back our team, we will make a last rally to the playoffs...

[Cammo101]

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The thing is that we NEVER had a healthy lineup since 2005-06(The only time we were healthy is when we acquire Artest and made a late playoff run; we were 28-12 or so during that last half of the season) . We will have a healthy lineup for the first time by by mid Januray or so....

This is my response on the other thread:

We are decimated by injuries this year. (Losing 4 legit starters: Bibby/Martin/Artest/SAR) Also, Artest didnt play for the first 7 games due to that suspension. Brad Miller really stepped it up this season. The bench really stepped it up. Salmons, Garcia, and Beno are the ones improved alot. We should be proud where we at right now. Losing our best players should guaranteed us for the #1 pick but we are not. We fight hard every night despite competition. We dont get blown out like others assume...


When this team is healthy we are a playoff team (6/7/8 seeds) look back when we were truly healthy. It was that one half of the season when we got Artest. We were like 28-12 for that last half of the season and went to the playoffs... The last 2 years IMO were flukes due to key injuries in the worst situations... When we get back our team, we will make a last rally to the playoffs...

All this seems true enough, but my point is why would you want a team with an admitted upside of a 6 seed? Also, you can only be chronically hurt for so long before it goes from bad luck to trend.

[KF10]

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All this seems true enough, but my point is why would you want a team with an admitted upside of a 6 seed? Also, you can only be chronically hurt for so long before it goes from bad luck to trend.

People paint us like we are a a lock into lottery even with a healthy lineup (Which is completely false). Let's assume that we are the 6th see in the west. Why break that success if we could improve the team i.e. trades, MLE, and etc? So, you are telling me that the New Orleans Hornets (Which are the 6th seed) should just rebuild because they are the 6th seed? They struggle through injuries of past years and they are showing success when healthy. So why cant the Kings do that?

[Smills91]

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If there is so much talent on Sacramento then why haven't they been good since Webber left? Artest, Bibby, Miller, Garcia, Martin, Salmons, Hawes, Douby, SAR...if these guys are all so good that people should want to trade for them then why can't they win?

Possibly because your overvaluing all your players.

I've been telling you this throughout the whole thread...the Kings BENCH is beating quality teams and playing just under .500 ball. Losing FOUR starters takes it's toll...especially for lengths of months!

After Ron and Mike get back with Martin having just returned, the Kings team is DEEEEEP. They'll start winning more games. THey've lost about 7 games by 3 or less points all within the past 2-3 weeks.

[Smills91]

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Expirings aren't garbage to teams smart enough to know when to rebuild.

Like Atlanta...Like the Clippers years ago....like chicago just a few years back...like Minnesota now...the track records not good through cap space alone...trades and drafting are the more surer form of rebuilding.

[SacKingZZZ]

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You might be right, but three months where they are all clicking together may remind GM's of their skills, demonstrate they are over injuries, and raise their trade value for the summer.

Believe me, actual NBA GM's are not nearly as fickle as the fans who post on this board. If they were teams would be shifting entire rosters annually.

[SacKingZZZ]

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If Sacto could get anywhere near this value for Miller he would be gone already. This thread shows why Sacto is becoming Indy West. Treading water and refusing to rebuild unless you can get A+ return for a bunch a guy who are either old, don't fit the system or injured. Good luck with Artest, Bibby, and Miller...I guess you can always rebuild 8 years from now when they are old enough to retire.

Maybe, but I am arguing that no way in hell would Francisco Garcia be moved in the same deal.

[sackings916]

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Expirings aren't garbage to teams smart enough to know when to rebuild.

But giving up a Brad Miller and Francisco Garcia for that package isn't a fair deal period. The Kings would need more value.