Redd Three-Way: MIL-CLE-DEN

[ecuhus1981]

Trade ID #4411216

Milwaukee Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players: Shannon Brown, Ira Newble, Damon Jones, J.R. Smith, Eduardo Najera
Outgoing Players: Charlie Bell, Dan Gadzuric, Michael Redd
MIL starts over by clearing capspace, and adding two athletic wing scorers.
Williams, Smith, Mason, Jianlian, Bogut
Ivey, Brown, Simmons, Villanueva, Voskuhl



Cleveland Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players: Charlie Bell, Dan Gadzuric, Michael Redd, Nene Hilario, Kenyon Martin
Outgoing Players: Shannon Brown, Ira Newble, Damon Jones, Donyell Marshall, Drew Gooden, Eric Snow, Larry Hughes
CLE goes all out financially to put a respectable team around Lebron. They go from dangerously thin to very deep up front, and add shooting on the perimeter.
Gibson, Redd, James, Varejao, Ilgauskas
D. Brown, Bell, Pavlovic, Martin, Gadzuric



Denver Trade Breakdown
Incoming Players: Donyell Marshall, Drew Gooden, Eric Snow, Larry Hughes
Outgoing Players: J.R. Smith, Eduardo Najera, Nene Hilario, Kenyon Martin
DEN takes a step closer to the WCCs while moving its worst contract (Martin) for one that ends a year earlier (Hughes). Losing Nene will hurt, but Gooden is much healthier and better right now. His ceiling isn't as high as Nene's, sure; but at his rate, Nene has a better chance of touching all four walls at once than the ceiling! Adding two defensive ball-handlers helps the cause, and allow AI and Melo to operate freely.
Hughes, Iverson, Anthony, Gooden, Camby
Snow, Diawara, Kleiza, Marshall, Hunter

[EastSideBucksFan]

One of the worst Redd trades I've ever seen.

Ira Newble sucks
Damon Jones sucks
JR Smith sucks
Najera is OK


We're not just looking for expirings and a garbage pile.

[TripleDouble]

To be perfectly honest the only team that likes this is Cleveland. Maybe Denver thinks about it for a while, but Milwaukee gives a curtcy second because it is well concieved.

Mil - they don't improve any area on their team with this trade. While cap space is nice you want to improve at least a little at some position.

Denver - trades 4 contributors for 4 contributors that are not an upgrade, and 1 terrible contract for 1 terrible contract. This is the kind of latteral deal that bad teams make to shake things up, not good teams.

Cleveland - makes out like bandits

[thethrill23]

sounds good to me but ofcourse i am a cavs fan

[ecuhus1981]

Alright, what young SGs WOULD interest you in a Redd trade? Maybe Brown and Smith don't appeal to you, but they are both quality young SGs. Smith has the tools to be a 1st/2nd option as a sniper SG, which is why I thought he would work well with what the Bucks already expect out of the SG position.

Obviously, certain young SGs (like Martin, Roy, even Brewer) aren't available in a Redd trade. But I feel Smith and for example McCants are right below that level of u25 swingmen, and JR has a higher ceiling than most.

[TripleDouble]

Alright, what young SGs WOULD interest you in a Redd trade? Maybe Brown and Smith don't appeal to you, but they are both quality young SGs. Smith has the tools to be a 1st/2nd option as a sniper SG, which is why I thought he would work well with what the Bucks already expect out of the SG position.

Obviously, certain young SGs (like Martin, Roy, even Brewer) aren't available in a Redd trade. But I feel Smith and for example McCants are right below that level of u25 swingmen, and JR has a higher ceiling than most.

For me it is not that Smith is a bad replacement for Redd, it's that we get nothing else... so we downgrade SG and improve nothing other than cap space. While I really believe Redd will be traded, it is not as if he is a malcontent. He is well liked by the owner, and allot of fans. The problem is he is a poor player next to Mo, Bogut, and Yi. Redd really seems like he is the odd man out (with the style those three play). I would look more for a trade like the one that sent Ray out of Milwaukee than teams dumping their best players like both the 76ers and Sonics were trying to.

[ecuhus1981]

To be perfectly honest the only team that likes this is Cleveland. Maybe Denver thinks about it for a while, but Milwaukee gives a curtcy second because it is well concieved.

Mil - they don't improve any area on their team with this trade. While cap space is nice you want to improve at least a little at some position.

Denver - trades 4 contributors for 4 contributors that are not an upgrade, and 1 terrible contract for 1 terrible contract. This is the kind of latteral deal that bad teams make to shake things up, not good teams.

Cleveland - makes out like bandits

Nene cannot honestly be considered a "contributor". He would be, if he would ever stay healthy and in shape. CLE would have to waive his physical just to do this deal.

The "terrible contracts" I mentioned aren't equal, at all. Kenyon's is larger in size ($13mil to Hughes' $12mil) and length (4 years to Hughes' 3). Their injury histories cancel each other out, but in the financial department DEN comes out clearly the winner.

The Nuggets field a team more prepared for the playoffs (Camby+Martin+(Neneonthebench) sure isn't going to bother Duncan, Boozer and the bigs of the WC). Smith is a legit prospect, but Karl does not liek him in the starting lineup with AI and Melo.

I really don't understand how people say CLE comes out soooooooooo well. I know they get a good deal and get to compete, but to do so they take on LOTS of salary. Gadzuric. Bell. Martin. Serviceable players, sure, but they are in luxury tax Hades until 2011 without a clear exit strategy, while they help DEN and MIL in that regard.

[ecuhus1981]

One of the worst Redd trades I've ever seen.

Ira Newble sucks
Damon Jones sucks
JR Smith sucks
Najera is OK


We're not just looking for expirings and a garbage pile.

I heartily disagree that this is the worst. Why, I just saw one earlier this morning, with Orlando's assorted mess of contracts. Boy, that one was terrible!

But really, who DO you want in a Redd trade? I thought Smith would fit well, but give me some names. In response to TD's comment about improving "at least a little at some position", it would cut into the rebuilding effort. DEN might give you Kleiza for example, but you'd have to take Hunter/Atkins instead of Najera, or something like that. This is true of all deals, not just this one. When Minnesota traded Garnett, did they improve at any position? How about Philly with Iverson? LA with O'neal?

Also, I think CLE sending a 1st to MEM would be fair.

[TripleDouble]

-= original quote snipped =-
This is true of all deals, not just this one. When Minnesota traded Garnett, did they improve at any position? How about Philly with Iverson? LA with O'neal?

Also, I think CLE sending a 1st to MEM would be fair.

Again, the difference is that those teams were forced into trading those players. I do not think the Bucks are any where close to that. I will once again offer up the Ray Allen trade (from Mil to Seattle) as example. The trade abckfired for the Bucks, but at the time Payton(whose falloff happened the next year) and Mason(up-and-coming player) were good value for Allen (unlike the other trades you mentioned).

[ecuhus1981]

What about the latest Allen trade, from SEA to BOS? That one has more of a correlation to this trade:

Green > Smith
West >> Brown
Szczerbiak = Najera (in trade value)

So, MIL clearly does not get the boost of youth that SEA got. But if you look at the rest of the trade:

Jones, Newble and a future CLE 1st for Gadzuric and Bell

the deal becomes alot more palatable. It's a fair package, but I can respect the fact that the Bucks would prefer more youth and less cap relief in a Redd trade.

Also, none of those teams had a fire sale on their star players. That was the going rate for them. It will be the same for Redd...

[TripleDouble]

I would put the latest Allen trade in with the other group. When teams know you have to trade, what you can get goes way down.

Allen - everyone knew the Sonics were blowing up and going young
Garnett - again it was common knowledge that Garnett was wanting out
AI - he forced his way out
Shaq - see above

There are not too many examples of prime all-stars bring traded where the team trading them didn't have it's hand forced. The Bucks are not in that position now (just like they were not with Allen...although that will not last forever). IMO Redd's value is different because of that. If they start shopping him everywhere, his value will diminish to the point you are at now. A deal must be done early in the process to avoid that.

[ecuhus1981]

The other big difference between those guys and Redd, is of course the fact that they all have a half-dozen or so All-Star appearances to their credit. MIL needs to accept that they will not get a bright and shiny prospect or two, along with cap relief, for a 1-time All-Star who may have already started regressing.

[TripleDouble]

You are definately correct that Redd isn't as good as those players. Take a look at the trades I proposed, and you will see a huge gap between what you offered and " a bright and shiny prospect or two" where the Bucks can get some value. There are teams that would take Redd for much more than you are offering. If the Bucks start dangling him around, your prediction will be correct, but at this point they can get more.

[The Rebel]

-= original quote snipped =-



Nene cannot honestly be considered a "contributor". He would be, if he would ever stay healthy and in shape. CLE would have to waive his physical just to do this deal.

The "terrible contracts" I mentioned aren't equal, at all. Kenyon's is larger in size ($13mil to Hughes' $12mil) and length (4 years to Hughes' 3). Their injury histories cancel each other out, but in the financial department DEN comes out clearly the winner.

The Nuggets field a team more prepared for the playoffs (Camby+Martin+(Neneonthebench) sure isn't going to bother Duncan, Boozer and the bigs of the WC). Smith is a legit prospect, but Karl does not liek him in the starting lineup with AI and Melo.

You obviously did not watch the playoffs last year where Nene and Camby gave duncan fits, the Nuggets problem in the playoffs were the guards, and this deal does nothing to bring them back any upgrades so why would they want anything to do with it.

[LeQuitterNotMVP]

Cavs accept, we'll even throw in a 1st round pick to the Bucks.

I don't see any team trading for Nene, however, even though I wouldn't mind it.

[ecuhus1981]

***this post is directed at Bucks fans in general, and TripleDouble in particular***

Make a trade then, with better value for MIL. See how folks around here will react. I've been trying for a while now, to get Bucks fans to say in exact terms what they would like in a Redd trade.

[Baddy Chuck]

Umm dont know if there much to say but YUCK. We dont even get picks or anything?

[TripleDouble]

***this post is directed at Bucks fans in general, and TripleDouble in particular***

Make a trade then, with better value for MIL. See how folks around here will react. I've been trying for a while now, to get Bucks fans to say in exact terms what they would like in a Redd trade.

The trade that alot of Bucks and Pacers fans like was Redd and CV for Daniels, Granger, and Murphy.

I wasn't trying to be argumentive, just discussing a players trade value under different scenerios.

I can't speak for other Bucks fans, but here are the trades I have thought of as starting points (also the Mavs one has been shot down by everyone so ignor that one):

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

[youngcrev]

Bad trade for Denver. At this point Hughes might be considered a downgrade from JR Smith, especially since JR is one of the Nuggets better shooters, and they clearly downgrade their frontcourt in moving KMart, Nene and Najera for Gooden and Donyell.

[ecuhus1981]

It seems that in your thread, Bucks fans are just as preoccupied as I assumed they would be about jettisoning bad contracts with their stars. When you do that, you are not going to get elite return n the form of prospects. I think the Bucks get a fresh start with my deal, and a fair amount of youth. if you prefer Cedric Simmons to Shannon Brown, I'm sure they could be swapped in the deal, since Ced would be swamped in a full veteran rotation in CLE.