GSW/SAC

[VintaGe36]

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And all we have to do is give up Kevin Martin

Why are you calling me crazy? Attack the POST, not the poster.

I reconize that SAC gives up value, REALLY good value. You are acting like its Bobby Simmons for Kevin straight up. I get you dont like the deal, but I would like to know why. Kevin Martin strikes me as a 2nd fittle kind of guy, so saying hes your "Franchise" player doesn't really make me flinch.

Biedrins is a cornerstone bigman,(not a 1st tier, but IMO a 2nd tier guy)

Him and Hawes are a GREAT fit next to each other, and swingman are easy to find,(while swingmen as efficient as Martin are not)

WHY do you feel this is SOOO bad?

[sackings916]

I'm sorry but what?

GSW would laugh at Biedrins and Davis for KT and Bibby

Biedrins for Martin is ALOT more fair.

Biedrins for Martin is not a fair deal value wise. You're overrating Biedrins quite a bit. He's an above average defensive C but really is not that good defensively,def. not a specialist and I wouldn't call him a defensive C. He does play with high energy and runs the floor very well though. His offense is pretty much just putbacks. It does fill a need for the Kings, but that doesn't mean we should do the deal.

[Smills91]

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If, I had two 2/3 players,(Salmons and Artest) that are both very talenented and both could start, and a PF/C(Hawes) who would compliment Biedrins, than yeah, I think I would.

Wow, well I guess that tells me all I need to know.

[SactownHrtBrks8]

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Why are you calling me crazy? Attack the POST, not the poster.

I reconize that SAC gives up value, REALLY good value. You are acting like its Bobby Simmons for Kevin straight up. I get you dont like the deal, but I would like to know why. Kevin Martin strikes me as a 2nd fittle kind of guy, so saying hes your "Franchise" player doesn't really make me flinch.

Biedrins is a cornerstone bigman,(not a 1st tier, but IMO a 2nd tier guy)

Him and Hawes are a GREAT fit next to each other, and swingman are easy to find,(while swingmen as efficient as Martin are not)

WHY do you feel this is SOOO bad?

People are just high on the fumes of the last two games where Martin only missed 4 shots out of 27 and its not a blow you away type of deal. (especially when you're player is playing so well) and that is nothing against Beans

[VintaGe36]

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Wow, well I guess that tells me all I need to know.

Ok?


If I'm getting prime value, say Ellis and Biedrins, in this instants, I pull the trigger.

So, for sake of example, lets switch Butler and Martin.


So the Kings sport this roster:

Bibby/Udrih
Butler/Salmons
Artest/Garcia
Moore(?)/KT
Miller/Hawes

Do you notice something? I see alot of quality at the 2 and the 3, and not so much at the 4 and 5.

Would I trade Ellis and Biedrins(a 5, and a guy who *COULD* learn to play the 1) for my BEST 2-3, but not a HUGE drop off from my other players?(Mind you the difference between Butler/Martin and Salmons is NOTICEABLE, but its not like its from Brand to K9)

Not to mention it would all but guarentee me a top 4 lotto pick(I don't want to say top 3, or even top 4,(MEM and BOS say hi))

So its basically

Caron Butler for Andris Biedrins and Monta Ellis AND a chance at a franchise PG.

Now I may be alone on this, but I'll take that.

Rose(best case scenario)
Salmons
Artest
Hawes
Biedrins

With Ellis off the bench?

VERY Solid team.

Don't get this twisted, with the current Wiz team, I wouldn't entertain Biedrins/Ellis for Butler, mainly because Arenas is a more polished, more talented overall better version of Ellis, and Haywood is already a good/decent defensive C. The pieces dont fit.

Than again, I expect to get flamed for this as well, but hey bring it on.

[rpa]

Biedrins is a cornerstone bigman,(not a 1st tier, but IMO a 2nd tier guy)

I disagree there. I think he's a poor man's Ben Wallace to be honest (IMO he's worse than Wallace was in his prime in nearly every aspect of the game) and Wallace was on the border of "cornerstone" big man IMO. He was one (in his prime) but any worse (1 iota) and he wouldn't have been.

My problem with Biedrins is that he's such a non factor on the offensive end and, while he's a good defender, he's not a GREAT defender or basket protector (like Camby, for instance).

[RIPskaterdude]

Here's why I would NEVER trade Biedrins for Martin.

The last three games, Beans has a total of 12 points in 56 minutes.

Martin, meanwhile, has a total of 64 points in 57 minutes in only two games....while only missing 4 shots.

And Martin is #5 in PPG, even though he also has Salmons, Artest, and Miller all on his team.

Martin also doesn't have to take 44 **** shots in one game to get his points. *COUGH* KOBE *COUGH*

But your right! It does seem fair! What was I thinking?!

[KF10]

Again, if we traded Martin we are still NOT lock for the lottery...We still have Bibby/Artest/Miller and etc...So, your view is flawed...

[VintaGe36]

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People are just high on the fumes of the last two games where Martin only missed 4 shots out of 27 and its not a blow you away type of deal. (especially when you're player is playing so well) and that is nothing against Beans

Here's why I would NEVER trade Biedrins for Martin.

The last three games, Beans has a total of 12 points in 56 minutes.

Martin, meanwhile, has a total of 64 points in 57 minutes in only two games....while only missing 4 shots.

And Martin is #5 in PPG, even though he also has Salmons, Artest, and Miller all on his team.

But your right! It does seem fair! What was I thinking?!

Speak of the devil.

If your going to say "Player X scores A points despite these players...."

YOU HAVE TO TELL BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY

Biedrins gets most of his points of putbacks, i.e not alot of plays being ran for him.

He plays with Baron Davis,Al Harrington,Monta Ellis,Stephen Jackson, in other words, ALOT of offensive minded players.

Biedrins also brings intangibles, something which can't be read in the box score.

Biedrins brings 10/10 to the table with D.

Using the last 3 games,(with Biedrins in a mini-slump(apparently) and Martin out of his mind isn't all that fair if you ask me.

[VintaGe36]

Again, if we traded Martin we are still NOT lock for the lottery...We still have Bibby/Artest/Miller and etc...So, your view is flawed...

I haven't seen Bibby, is he back STRONG?

I dont know, the West is real good this year, and IMO losing a 20 ppg scorer(efficient one at that) could have its effects, but yes you are correct.

[sackings916]

[quote="VintaGe36"][/quote]

I thought it was Biedrins for Martin straight up which you said was a fair deal? Biedrins+Monta is a big difference and I think the Kings would have to take that deal.

Seems like you backtracked on Biedrins for Martin as a fair deal and added in Ellis.

[KF10]

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I haven't seen Bibby, is he back STRONG?

I dont know, the West is real good this year, and IMO losing a 20 ppg scorer(efficient one at that) could have its effects, but yes you are correct.

Umm, Bibby was IMPRESSIVE in practice according to various articles in the Sac Bee....

[VintaGe36]

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I thought it was Biedrins for Martin straight up which you said was a fair deal? Biedrins+Monta is a big difference and I think the Kings would have to take that deal.

Seems like you backtracked on Biedrins for Martin as a fair deal and added in Ellis.

I said Ellis/Biedrins is a REALLY good deal for SAC, but also said that Biedrins and Martin would be a good deal for SAC(of course not NEARLY as good as the first) I said this FULLY expecting Kings fans to lash back, which they have.

I've made my points, and to be honest, dont expect alot of agreement from the Kings perspective.

I just feel that Biedrins being a "Force" on Offensive isn't ALL that needed with Hawes being so gifted offensively(From the looks of it anyhow.)

[SactownHrtBrks8]

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Wow, well I guess that tells me all I need to know.

Ok?


If I'm getting prime value, say Ellis and Biedrins, in this instants, I pull the trigger.

So, for sake of example, lets switch Butler and Martin.


So the Kings sport this roster:

Bibby/Udrih
Butler/Salmons
Artest/Garcia
Moore(?)/KT
Miller/Hawes

Do you notice something? I see alot of quality at the 2 and the 3, and not so much at the 4 and 5.

Would I trade Ellis and Biedrins(a 5, and a guy who *COULD* learn to play the 1) for my BEST 2-3, but not a HUGE drop off from my other players?(Mind you the difference between Butler/Martin and Salmons is NOTICEABLE, but its not like its from Brand to K9)

Not to mention it would all but guarentee me a top 4 lotto pick(I don't want to say top 3, or even top 4,(MEM and BOS say hi))

So its basically

Caron Butler for Andris Biedrins and Monta Ellis AND a chance at a franchise PG.

Now I may be alone on this, but I'll take that.

Rose(best case scenario)
Salmons
Artest
Hawes
Biedrins

With Ellis off the bench?

VERY Solid team.

Don't get this twisted, with the current Wiz team, I wouldn't entertain Biedrins/Ellis for Butler, mainly because Arenas is a more polished, more talented overall better version of Ellis, and Haywood is already a good/decent defensive C. The pieces dont fit.

Than again, I expect to get flamed for this as well, but hey bring it on.

See where not talking about a Monta and Beans for Martin trade (never would happen from a Warriors perspective) we're talking about a Beans alone for Martin

We also haven't seen what a healthy lineup came do yet. or what we can get back for Bibby and/or Artest and how all the pieces fit with that.

The Kings aren't going to tank. I'd rather play .500 ball the rest of the year and miss the playoffs than tank for a higher pick. How can any team want to watch their team? I ruins my day everytime I couldn't imagine being the Knicks or a Wolves fan

[VintaGe36]

Obviously, that was simply a response to Smills attempt to shoot me down with his Butler comment, after I posted Biedrins/Ellis for Maritn.



I guess I mis gauged SAC's feel for Martin, and Biedrins,(Who IMO is being really underrated in this thread.)

but ah well, no need to get violent about it.

[KF10]

yeah, but IMO

Biedrins for Martin straight up would be good for the Kings, but I know I'll get bashed for it.

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Yeah, you will... Just be prepared....

Told ya...

[sackings916]

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I said Ellis/Biedrins is a REALLY good deal for SAC, but also said that Biedrins and Martin would be a good deal for SAC(of course not NEARLY as good as the first) I said this FULLY expecting Kings fans to lash back, which they have.

I've made my points, and to be honest, dont expect alot of agreement from the Kings perspective.

I just feel that Biedrins being a "Force" on Offensive isn't ALL that needed with Hawes being so gifted offensively(From the looks of it anyhow.)

I agree that we need more of a defensive minded PF with Hawes here, but a the same time to give up Kevin Martin for a Biedrins straight up would be a terrible move. Biedrins is a solid C - he rebounds,hustles,runs the floor but is NOT anything special defensively and to give up Martin for him is ridiculous. Just because we have depth at the 2 and 3 does not mean we should downgrade overall talent by THAT MUCH to fill a need. If anything I feel you are overrating Biedrins more than Kings fans underrating him.

[turk3d]

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Tell your wife Marge, and Kids, Bart, Lisa and Maggie hi for me, would you.

I already told your momma, she said to tell you hi.