OT: Kobe vs. T-Mac

[CourtsideTV]

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This comment is hilarious, coming from someone who bases his opinions on random locker room jokes as opposed to detailed, sophisticated statistical computation and analysis.

you know how funny that sounds reading it on an 'internet message board'

haha..imagine real life.

[Joe Kleazy]

McGrady as good as he WAS cannot F*** with KOBE. All those years in the east and mac still never got out of the first round, then he wasn't smart enough to shut his mouth when he had a chance against detroit. He plays when he wants to and he is more comparable to his cousin.

Kobe has 3 rings, regarless of the fact that he played with shaq. Anybody who watched that team without laker hate knows kobe was just as important. Hell shaq couldn't even play down the stretch because of his poor free throw shooting.

Is is Kobe's fault that he played with shaq? TMac had the chance to be a free agent and team up with a star big even after he and vince couldnt do **** in the east for toronto. Instead he went to orlando and unfortunately grant hill didnt overcome injuries. Mac now has no excuses seeing as though he is playing with the best center in the West and still cant get out of the first round.


Do you honestly think kobe wouldn't have had much more success in the east after his laker days? I think things would have been much easier. Also swap KB and Mac for the last 3 years and Houston would have won at LEAST 1-2 chips by now.

[theTHIEF]

McGrady IMO had the tools to be better than Kobe, not a doubt in my mind...But Kobe is what he is and T-Mac is what he is...Kobe's going in the book, McGrady isn't even in the vicinity right now...sad...but once he threw games for the Magic...I stopped caring about him...he's already dead in my mind...

[CourtsideTV]

if tmac never had his lingering injuries..he'd be better than kobe even if he played without yao..do people not realize the craziness he use to pull off..you couldnt stop him...he would just run down the court...stop..pop and it went in from 5 feet behind the 3 point line..he just did that for fun..if he was feeling like showboating he'd just throw it off the glass for a nasty dunk... pretty much tmac could do what he wanted on the court before he got old and injury prone..sad to see him like this now but i dont think he'll get that ring unless he pulls a kg and ditches houston for orlando to play alongside with rashard lewis and dwight howard

just kidding..

[noblejedi777]

Manning: one ring
Kobe: three rings
T-Mac: zero rings

One of these things is not like the other...

those 3 rings, he played robin to Shaq's Batman. Kobe hasnt won anything since Shaq's departure.

Shaq in his prime has turned expansion teams into winners, our Magic is a case in point. 96, the bulls made a run, and there was no one going to stop MJ from winning those 3 titles. He immoratlized his name with that run. Its a shame how things turned out for our franchise, but with that said ...

Kobe is a fantastic player the last thing I want to do is take anything away from him in that respect, but things being the way they are, tell me when Kobe has progressed in the playoffs without the great Shaquino?

Make the flip around and you put Tracy on that squad, what do you get?


Kobe is not a champ, he's not even in Lebron's league, much less Shaq's. He's a great nba baller, but he's not a proven winner until he is consistent in the playoffs and wins a ring.

[noblejedi777]

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I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is it's hardly conclusive based on what you said.

If Kobe is better than Tmac it's for other reasons than those that you stated (i.e. championship rings). Kobe has hardly proven that he is a championship leader.

Arguments why Kobe is better based on observation:
-He's arguably played as efficiently w/o Shaq as he did with Shaq.
-Despite being the #1 option, Kobe is still an all-defensive caliber player. Tmac often gets excused for being subpar defensively sometimes because he "takes on so much offensive load."
-Kobe is more clutch.
-Tmac has a lazy eye.

There are others (and there are some for Tmac over Kobe). I'm not sure who I'd rather have on a team if I didn't have personal disdain for Kobe (the rapist/adulterer).

who would i rather have on my team, and tmac was my boy...

...

...

i would take,

brace yourselves,

Kobe over tmac any day of the week.
Let me explain.

This guy doesnt take days off. He doesnt have a lazy bone in his body. This guy is always improving, working and pushing himself. He's tenacious and doesnt make excuses for off nights. Kobe in my eyes has eclipsed tmac as a player, as a champion, no, and you cant give that to him. Yes, he has 3 rings, and he will have that when he retires from the game, but he won it on Shaq's back, period.

This will always play as the shadow cast over Kobe's career until he wins another ring, and that's a big if. With the teams he is contending against, I just dont see it happening. Sorry guys, I loved Tracy, but we all know his record set next to Kob's.

I dont like Kobe, I never have, I dont like his persona and he just rubs me the wrong way, however, the guy knows how to ball, and can win you games. You place him beside Dwight and Hedo, i think you have a championship caliber team, period, I dont think you can say that about Tmac.

[noblejedi777]

You cant put Peyton in the same category. Football more than any sport is a "team" sport. Peyton alone cant will you to a victory. MJ had his supporting cast, but if it wasnt for MJ, the Bulls would still have been stuck in mediocrity. Look at how the T-Wolves have fared since Garnett left. When we had Shaq, look how we exploded, we became the cinderella story of the nba. Dwight is no shaq, not yet. We still are missing a piece of two, Tony being out really hurts us right now, but besides him being out, we are in desperate need of a field general.

[KingRobb02]

if tmac never had his lingering injuries..he'd be better than kobe even if he played without yao..do people not realize the craziness he use to pull off..you couldnt stop him...he would just run down the court...stop..pop and it went in from 5 feet behind the 3 point line..he just did that for fun..if he was feeling like showboating he'd just throw it off the glass for a nasty dunk... pretty much tmac could do what he wanted on the court before he got old and injury prone..sad to see him like this now but i dont think he'll get that ring unless he pulls a kg and ditches houston for orlando to play alongside with rashard lewis and dwight howard.

Yeah, it seems like people forget how good McGrady was. If the Magic were in a large market like LA or NY McGrady would be an MVP candidate year in and year out. The propblem is his vicious exploits were only seen by us locals and no one seemed to care. I remember being at that 60 point game against Washington and realizing that he wasn't even trying. He just came down the court, stopped and popped it in. I think that some people see him as a laid back guy and think that means he doesn't care. Sure he doesn't get that snarl that Kobe gets but he is just as effective. Kobe plays with more emotion, but that doesn't mean he tries harder. think back to the game when McGrady kicked the ball into the stands twice and his expression barely changed. For everyone that haes him, try to think of it from his standpoint. I'm sure that at the end of the year when the team was in al out lottery mode trying to get the #1 pick, a competitor like McGrady didn't want to be a part of that so the team shut him down with a fake knee injury. I'm sure you all remember the story about him going to the team trainer and asking which knee was supposed to hurt. Sure he was there for the 20 game losing streak, but look at the team we put around him. His second best player was Juwan Howard, who should be a 6th man at best at this point. You can't tell me that if Kobe had the same team he would have made the 2nd round.

[Devin 1L]

Again, this is not meant to hate on McGrady (see previous post for reference)...

I see people making the "What has Kobe done without Shaq?" point, and while I think it carries some weight, I hardly think you should marginalize what he did do with Shaq, which is to win a few rings.

I think anyone who uses that argument should consider what I think is a relatively comparable situation: "What has McGrady done with one of the closest alternatives to Shaq?" Nothing.

So yeah, thus far post-Shaq, Kobe hasn't really accomplished (as a team) anything more than McGrady accomplished when he was the "lone star", but since McGrady has been in Houston, he has been in a fairly similar situation to that of Kobe with a great big man. The difference is, Kobe has three rings to show for, McGrady has first round exits.

Further, post-Shaq, Kobe hasn't had a very good supporting cast, somewhat similar to McGrady in Orlando. But now, this year, with a better supporting cast, look at how their doing -- they're the #1 team in the west. The Rockets -- 10th, and McGrady is again sitting on the bench.

[mhectorgato]

Again, this is not meant to hate on McGrady (see previous post for reference)...

I see people making the "What has Kobe done without Shaq?" point, and while I think it carries some weight, I hardly think you should marginalize what he did do with Shaq, which is to win a few rings.

I think anyone who uses that argument should consider what I think is a relatively comparable situation: "What has McGrady done with one of the closest alternatives to Shaq?" Nothing.

So yeah, thus far post-Shaq, Kobe hasn't really accomplished (as a team) anything more than McGrady accomplished when he was the "lone star", but since McGrady has been in Houston, he has been in a fairly similar situation to that of Kobe with a great big man. The difference is, Kobe has three rings to show for, McGrady has first round exits.

Further, post-Shaq, Kobe hasn't had a very good supporting cast, somewhat similar to McGrady in Orlando. But now, this year, with a better supporting cast, look at how their doing -- they're the #1 team in the west. The Rockets -- 10th, and McGrady is again sitting on the bench.

Don't have the numbers in front of me ... but how many seasons did it take for LA to win it all after Shaq migrated out there?

When The Big-Egotisitcal made his debut in Tinsel town, how many seasons did Kobizzle have underneath his elastic waist line?

(BTW, imo Kobe >> T-Mac. If you were to factor in Me-Mac's injuries - real, imagined, or put on - it becomes >>>>)

[Devin 1L]

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Don't have the numbers in front of me ... but how many seasons did it take for LA to win it all after Shaq migrated out there?

Four.

When The Big-Egotisitcal made his debut in Tinsel town, how many seasons did Kobizzle have underneath his elastic waist line?

Zero.

[MagicFan3]

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I don't care if LeBron is leading the league in scoring, Kobe is a better offensive player, in my opinion.

It's funny, I'd imagine that if you polled people, that they'd actually say the reverse of what you said. LeBron: Complete, Kobe: Offensive

Agreed, Kobe > LeBron offensively. They're not that far apart as far as complete game goes.

[noblejedi777]

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Yeah, it seems like people forget how good McGrady was. If the Magic were in a large market like LA or NY McGrady would be an MVP candidate year in and year out. The propblem is his vicious exploits were only seen by us locals and no one seemed to care. I remember being at that 60 point game against Washington and realizing that he wasn't even trying. He just came down the court, stopped and popped it in. I think that some people see him as a laid back guy and think that means he doesn't care. Sure he doesn't get that snarl that Kobe gets but he is just as effective. Kobe plays with more emotion, but that doesn't mean he tries harder. think back to the game when McGrady kicked the ball into the stands twice and his expression barely changed. For everyone that haes him, try to think of it from his standpoint. I'm sure that at the end of the year when the team was in al out lottery mode trying to get the #1 pick, a competitor like McGrady didn't want to be a part of that so the team shut him down with a fake knee injury. I'm sure you all remember the story about him going to the team trainer and asking which knee was supposed to hurt. Sure he was there for the 20 game losing streak, but look at the team we put around him. His second best player was Juwan Howard, who should be a 6th man at best at this point. You can't tell me that if Kobe had the same team he would have made the 2nd round.

If you look at any of my posts from then, I was a huge Tracy supporter, but the brother I feel is in a decline. I hate to say it, but because of his nagging injuries and being in the west, I just really don't see him making a real big push out west. I know about back injuries, having dealt with back issues, tweaking it, when it goes out, you cant do anything, period. I cant imagine the painkillers that guy has to take to play when it begins to flare up. It never ever goes away.

Be that as it may, I still see mileage left on Kobe over Tracy. Who would I like to see here more, yeah, I would like to see Tracy come back and redeem himself with a better cast of players around him. I always said he was shortchanged here. They never surrounded him with the proper talent. When he had a few pieces here and there, they would remove them and make asinine player moves. Hockey guy should have tried his best to stroke our coveted all star and sell him on dwight. Imagine what couldve been, but i digress...

This is all water under the bridge, and all of those other cliches, we move on.

Right now, at this moment if I had a choice between the 2 all stars, I would choose Kobe because of his, 1 health, 2 skill sets, 3 his tenacity and sheer determination to win games, work ethic, blah blah blah.

Do I want him here. no. He can stay in LA for all I care. If I were Otis, I would make a run for Agent 0.

Dwight
Shard
Hedo
Arenas
Nelson

He can make it work, I dont know how, I leave all the numbers to the numbers guys, a guy says he wants to make a push for a playoff contender, he may be one of the missing pieces that will place us closer to reaching that coveted brass ring.

[mhectorgato]

Be that as it may, I still see mileage on Kobe over Tracy.

Then T-Mac must have been assembled on a Friday.

[noblejedi777]

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Then T-Mac must have been assembled on a Friday.

yeah i caught that after i read it over again, duh.

[noblejedi777]

"a guy says he wants to make a push for a playoff contender"

if a guy states that he wants to make a push for a playoff contender and for all intents and purposes, the wizards are going in a different direction with their players, (where do you see GA's mug anywhere on their site, they are really big on Jamison and Butler, but you dont see Arenas anywhere on their site) you make the guy an offer and see if he joins your club. I know there is a lot more involved, but you get the gist of what I mean here. Being in the same division, the wizards may not want to make that move, but who knows.

[OhMyBosh]

As someone else mentioned, I would go crazy if T-mac went back to Orlando. He is a much better distributor then Kobe. I'd put him on par with Lebron in ability to pass the ball. Kobe is better than Tracy offensively and defensively, it's not hard to see that. But back in the day, even Kobe thought Tracy and Vince were the stars of the league. They had so much talent. Too bad they had no work ethic. What pains me is that they both left Toronto... :'(

[Bensational]

McGrady as good as he WAS cannot F*** with KOBE. All those years in the east and mac still never got out of the first round, then he wasn't smart enough to shut his mouth when he had a chance against detroit. He plays when he wants to and he is more comparable to his cousin.

Kobe has 3 rings, regarless of the fact that he played with shaq. Anybody who watched that team without laker hate knows kobe was just as important. Hell shaq couldn't even play down the stretch because of his poor free throw shooting.

Is is Kobe's fault that he played with shaq? TMac had the chance to be a free agent and team up with a star big even after he and vince couldnt do **** in the east for toronto. Instead he went to orlando and unfortunately grant hill didnt overcome injuries. Mac now has no excuses seeing as though he is playing with the best center in the West and still cant get out of the first round.


Do you honestly think kobe wouldn't have had much more success in the east after his laker days? I think things would have been much easier. Also swap KB and Mac for the last 3 years and Houston would have won at LEAST 1-2 chips by now.

just as important as D Wade or Penny.

Shaq makes it easier for other players to step up, more than any other player in the league.

Kobe's great, but don't kid yourself that those rings aren't there solely because of Shaq. Same as DWade shouldn't expect any rings any time soon now that Shaq's on his way out.

in Tmac's defense to not having a ring with Yao.... simply, Yao isn't Shaq, Duncan or KG calibre and the Rockets aren't built like the Pistons.

with that said, i still think Kobe's the better player for a few reasons (his competitiveness stands out as the biggest difference to me) and i'm not a big fan of Kobe.

LBJ is the greatest and i'd take him over those two any day of the week.

[tosi]

NBA Champion vs Second round virgin. lol