"Kobe Shooting Too Much" Thread

[Dexmor]

Kobe does not shoot to much. Kobe has to become a 30-35 point a game scorer because Odom is the most overrated player in the game. I would trade him for a scorer so Kobe doesn't have to be a 20 and a 15 point a game scorer in the same game.

[TylersLakers]

Who cares how many shots Kobe shoots as long as he makes 47%+ and we win.

[blix]

Who cares how many shots Kobe shoots as long as he makes 47%+ and we win.

QFT

We will win and lose games where Kobe shoots too much.

We will win and lose games where Kobe shoots too little.

We will win and lose games where Kobe shoots the perfect amount.

Losing Bynum changes the way we play the game this year, and they had to adjust in less than 24 hours. Be happy we got the win, because scoring wasn't the problem. When you score 120+ points the question shouldn't be did we win, it should be by how much?

The very obvious problem was interior defense.

[Gus McCrae]

I dont' think anyone is a kobe hater here..we're all laker fans. I hope we're comfortable enough to constructively critize our team without people thinking we're haters. Kobe took a helluva lot of shots that game; Actually, he took more shots against Seattle than any active player in the NBA has ever taken in a game; at least from my research. that includes Tmac, Iverson and Shaq ; it's a concern. that's all.

[lakerlifer]

Our Starting Lineup until Bynum gets back SHOULD be:

Fish
Kobe
Ariza
Odom
Kwame

All that stagnate sitting around and watching Kobe is do to the fact that we need a slasher who can dive to the Basket and finish. Ariza is very good at this and he plays with energy and effort at both ends.

Luke and Lamar don't seem to be able to get themselves to dive toward the basket on a regular basis. If one of them did we would be much more effective on the offensive end.

[Ridwaan]

Good reads explaining why kobe's 44 shots weren't as detrimental as it seems, and how it actually helped:

http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2008/01/15/44-shots/

Also shows his greatness.

[LakerFanSince84]

I agree with Hartman on this one. They are 80% crap rumor and trouble stirring there, but I saw Kobe was killing me last night.

a-horrible ball hog(it's one thing to get aggressive without Andrew, it's another to stagnate and not look for teammates)
b-looked sick(still hit a decent percentage of shots, but at the cost of the team ball we've been playing)
c-This is partially Phil's problem- ultimately if Kobe stops trusting the other 12 players on our roster just because Drew isn't there, it's Phil's job to remind him we have guys who can still hit shots)

To be honest though Lamar, while doing a number of good things was responsible for a ton of Collison points and his offense was pretty awful. Kwame, known for at least defense, sucked on D last night.

I'm not too worried about Kobe or the team if we can get back to team ball, but to revert back to last year's All Kobe all the time would permanently cripple us for the playoffs in my opinion.

So in conclusion... other than being the glam over the top radio version of what happened, I agree with 570.

I totally agree. Laker takes far too many shots that make u scratch your head with frustration. Bottomline, Kobe is the ultimate Political figure. He knows all the right things to say, but his play doesn't translate at times. Lakers can still win without Bynum, but the ball must reach everyone. EVERYONE GETS ON ODOM, but you folks don't realize how difficult it is to play with KOBE. Lamar looked totally disinterested once he seen Kobe chucking shots up.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe is the best player in the league hands down. But you would think after 12 years in the league he would try to improve a huge aspect of his game, playing without the basketball. Bynum has been huge this year, but this team should be able to handle teams without Bynum, particularly the Supersonics of the league. I can understand being a little more aggressive, but kobe will dribble from half of the court to the other and take a fade-awayjump shot with 2 hands in his face. It's tough to watch sometimes, I'm as loyal a LAKER fan as u find anywhere. Kobe must move the ball to his TEAMMATES.

This is exactly why Phil will continue to command pay raises even without making it past the first round. Not even the Zen Master can completely control Kobe. The day he steps down, will be a very sad day in LA LA Land! If Kobe takes anywhere close to 50 shots against Pheonix, we will be embarrassed in a very bad way.

[LakerFanSince84]

Our Starting Lineup until Bynum gets back SHOULD be:

Fish
Kobe
Ariza
Odom
Kwame

All that stagnate sitting around and watching Kobe is do to the fact that we need a slasher who can dive to the Basket and finish. Ariza is very good at this and he plays with energy and effort at both ends.

Luke and Lamar don't seem to be able to get themselves to dive toward the basket on a regular basis. If one of them did we would be much more effective on the offensive end.

The Reason Ariza comes off the bench now is because his play is consistent as a starter or off the bench, whereas Luke is HORRIBLE coming off the bench, he needs to start. I would still give majority of the minutes to Ariza. Mitch couldn't have traded for a better player to fit this system.

[LakerFanSince84]

man, if only we still had mo evans and cook on the team.... instant offense...

WTF....is he serious?

[Spanish_Laker]

I prefer Kobe taking 40 shots then Lamar shooting 20 jumpers and Kobe only his 20 fadeaways.

[Tommy Trojan]

It is very hard for us to win games if we have a play that is unable to score 3 quarters + OT. We have another play that has butter fingers aka "cakeboy" unable to even catch a ball none the less shoot a ball. Then we have another play that only shoots 3's. I believe he shot 7 or eight 3's just the last game. As a team we need to come to a compromise and see where each player needs to work on.

Yeah Kobe might take some shot's that are forced, but look who we have on the team. When Bynum is in there and Kobe is forcing that's when I get angry at Kobe.

[milesfides]

[quote="b shaw20"][/quote]

Your criticism of Kobe's clock management . Upon reviewing the last possession, Kobe runs the clock down at the top of the key to about 7 seconds. 7 SECONDS. There was a half second shot clock difference, so our possession was about 6-something seconds left.

That was executed almost perfectly, because driving from several feet beyond the three-point line with only 6 seconds left on your shot clock will give enough time for Kobe to:

1) either get all the way to the basket, or
2) it'll give his teammates enough time to catch-and-shoot the ball if Kobe kicks it out.
3) pull up for a jumper

With that amount of time, there's plenty of options. If Kobe drove with 3 seconds left on the shot clock, that would simply invite the Sonics to collapse on him, either stealing the ball or blocking a passing lane. It also reduces the chances that he could give his teammates enough time to catch-and-shoot.

Upon review of the play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuSFRGMoSXc



You can see the Lakers did run a play. Phil put Odom and Walton on the right side of the court to spread the court, the two worst shooters. Kobe drove left, obviously, with Fisher in the corner and Kwame in the post. It was a 3-man play.

When Kobe drove left with 6-something seconds left in our possession, it would give him enough time to get to the basket, kick it out to Fish, dump it off to Kwame, or even pass it cross-court to Odom or Walton. All 5-options are alive.

Now here's the great decision-making by Kobe. As he started his drive, Kurt Thomas left Kwame and stepped into the paint to stop Kobe's penetration. Collison switched on Kwame to box him out.

That was significant because Kurt Thomas was blocking the lane - a great defender by the way. Fisher was covered for the time being, so that pass was denied. Kwame was being boxed out by Collison.

At this point, Kobe's option would be kicking it out to Walton and Odom (two guys who haven't hit anything all night), or do his magic.

Kevin Durant overplayed Kobe's drive. He backpeddled, denying the drive, as well as Fisher's man popping out and threatening to stop the drive. At that moment, there were three defenders who would collapse on Kobe (four if you include Watson who was coming from behind).

At that moment, since the drive was being overplayed, Kobe pulled up for a wide open jumper. It was the best decision because Durant was back-peddling, yielding an open shot.

It was the best possible shot we could have gotten in that scenario. The fact that he was able to get such a shot was directly a result of the amount of time there was still left on the clock.

They blitz on Kobe was prevented by the fact that there was still time left on the clock, and Kobe took the best shot available, instead of forcing a pass or forcing an even more difficult shot by driving into the teeth of the defense.

And regarding "5 minutes" of a second chance, that's nonsense. If the Lakers have the go-ahead basket with 7 seconds left in the game, they shouldn't play for overtime, they should play for the win. Luckily they have Kobe who reads these situations like a genius.

I have rarely seen Kobe make mistakes regarding shot clock management. Other players, yes, but Kobe always keeps track of the time and plays accordingly.

It's one of the things that makes him the most dangerous player in the fourth quarter, and why he's nearly unanimously chosen by coaches as the player you would want handling the ball in the last seconds of a game.

[b shaw20]

If you think Kobe is great at clock management, then we just have different views on this.

I can't possibly think its a good thing to get a lead and leave time for the opponents to retaliate and either tie or beat you.

I am just saying, I'd rather have Kobe shoot a 25' jumpshot and leave no time on the clock thus have to settle it in extra time than the alternative which would be leaving time enough for THE OPPONENT to tie or worst yet, beat you. That scenario is without a doubt a worst one to me.

I prefer dictating the outcome of the game on offense (in last few seconds) than to leave it to our defense.

That's just me...

[TommyTheCat]

what came first, the chicken or the egg?

does kobe's excessive shooting freeze his teammates out of the game, get them out of rhythm and make them ineffective?

OR

are his teammates so bad that kobe can't trust them? or does kobe need to determine this on a game by game basis?

i don't think kobe's teammates are that bad that he should be opting to take a shot while double teamed instead of passing to an open shooter. it's not like last season when he was carrying the team when kwame, odom, luke and vlade missed significant time in the second half of the season and he was stuck with smush.

i think (and hope) this is just more of a one time thing.......kind of a panic attack triggered by bynum's injury and occuring during a back to back on the road scheduling. really the only opinions that matter is kobe's coach and teammates. i haven't heard the players comment on it but the reports indicate phil isn't happy with what he saw.

[Joe Kleazy]

Some good arguments on both sides, with the usual suspects leading the way. I'm always going to lean towards the less-shots-for-one-individual, more-team-play argument. It's just how I think the game should generally be played.

But as Miles said, hands down, no questions asked, our biggest problem last night was defense. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but we spend a ton of time harping on offense -- Kobe's shooting too much, Odom's not pulling his weight, etc. -- when defense, as well as we've played this season, is usually a much bigger problem. It certainly was last night.

Regarding Kobe's shot total -- it was maybe the second or third game this season, with the opener against Houston coming immediately to mind, where I thought he overdid it. And considering the circumstances -- no Drew, on the road, starting lineup struggling -- I'm willing to cut him some slack. For the most part, as much as his shot selection drives me nuts, he's done a good job sacrificing his own offense for the sake of the team.

Also, we won, and every victory we get without Drew is precious, so I'm not going to be overly picky about one game.

My big concern is that we don't fall into a habit of it over the next few months. Because no matter what the circumstances were, no matter who's to "blame," we will never, ever win anything of any importance if we're relying on Kobe to shoot every other trip down court for any lengthy stretch.

We've made the playoffs the past two years that way. But we should be beyond that, even with our second best player out. Let's hope everyone, from Kobe on down to Coby, does their part to make sure it doesn't happen.

With all the complaining this should be the main factor when it comes down to it.

I understand both sides of the coin but for us to see how everyone was struggling AND for us to lose the FIRST game without drew would have done far more to hurt team morale that kobe pulling 44 shots off. Mentally not seeing drew out there shook up our entire starting unit aside from kobe and fish. The games we win during this stretch will be "BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY" as far as I'm concerned.


Practice and preperation will be key for us to re-focus our strategy while we wait for drew, just as it will be for other teams guarding us. For seattle to know that kobe was going to take over and still not stop him from willing us to victory is big.

If kobe dosen't take over we have a thread about kobe's passive, diminishing game. We are now back to HOPING someone other than kobe has the balls to step up and we CANNOT wait until the fourth quarter to let kobe loose.

Playing piss poor defense all game is inexcusable, PERIOD. Regardless of whether your J is on or not you still need to defend, the one works without the other. Some players in the league are there for only playing defense, so dont tell me that your lack of offense hurt your defense.


If kobe shoots 45 for the next 27 games and we win more than we lose, I will be satisfied. All the haters have been proven that IF AND ONLY IF kobe has consistent help he will play team ball. Otherwise it is his duty to keep this team afloat to not risk pissing all this seasons hard work away.

[TommyTheCat]

IF AND ONLY IF kobe has consistent help he will play team ball. Otherwise it is his duty to keep this team afloat to not risk pissing all this seasons hard work away.

again, i find it funny that phil jackson wasn't happy with kobe shooting so much and that his teammates were starting to defer to him again. maybe phil is a kobe hater. or maybe phil seems to feel that kobe needs to involve his teammates more regardless of how kobe thinks they are playing.

i will puke my guts out if kobe starts taking 30+ shots a game while bynum is out. this is not the same scenario as last season where kobe had most of the starting front line out and smush as his side kick. this team is much better than the one he had to carry last year

[Sedale Threatt]

With all the complaining....

I'm not sure there's been as much complaining as level-headed discussion regarding how our offense might function over the next few months with our budding All-Star center on the sideline.

Perhaps Seattle was just an abberation, and Kobe did what had to be done to win on one particular evening.

Or perhaps it was a sign of things to come, which would indicate that we're not nearly as deep or good as we might think.

After one game, who knows which? But either way, it's definitely something that bears watching.

I thought Jackson struck the right note today in the Times by putting the onus on both Kobe and his teammates:

"He had some teammates who came out shy. If you really give Kobe the latitude and you're bashful about shooting the ball, he's going to take up all the rest of the shots."

Kind of like having a limited amount of food at a crowded dinner table. You better stick your nose in there and get your fill, or big brother's going to devour everything in sight.

As Tommy just pointed out, it's the eternal chicken-or-the-egg argument: were Kobe's teammates cowed by his aggressiveness, or was he simply doing what needed to be done to win the game on a night nobody else wanted to step up?

Everybody has their own opinion on that.

One thing that's indisputable: It's up to everybody, not just Kobe, to make sure we don't need him shooting 35 or 40 times to win. Because that's never going to get us anywhere in the long run.

[Joe Kleazy]

I dont' think anyone is a kobe hater here..we're all laker fans. I hope we're comfortable enough to constructively critize our team without people thinking we're haters. Kobe took a helluva lot of shots that game; Actually, he took more shots against Seattle than any active player in the NBA has ever taken in a game; at least from my research. that includes Tmac, Iverson and Shaq ; it's a concern. that's all.

The problem is the criticism seem more on kobe than the team. If your in a fight with your boys and everybody else with you getting they azz whipped do you stop knocking fools out, take a few blows yourself just so your boy can get a KO in? Hell know you do it yourself.

ALot of our team has no heart unless things are going their way, and if you are not gonna force things to go your way your azz will be KNOCKED THE F*** OUT.

[blix]

I thought Jackson struck the right note today in the Times by putting the onus on both Kobe and his teammates:

"He had some teammates who came out shy. If you really give Kobe the latitude and you're bashful about shooting the ball, he's going to take up all the rest of the shots."

Kind of like having a limited amount of food at a crowded dinner table. You better stick your nose in there and get your fill, or big brother's going to devour everything in sight.

It's up to everybody, not just Kobe, to make sure that doesn't happen.

This is, quite possibly, the best analogy to date.

[Joe Kleazy]

^ I also agree with PJ with this quote. This is my first time hearing his reaction to the game. Point being that for those who expect kobe to fill his own and his teammates statline, you will always have something to say.

KB is not and never was a point gaurd. The team needs to be aggressive themselves even if on certain possesions they freeze kobe out to show that they can produce. The ball has to be passed to kobe from time to time for him to do too much, so if you overlook him ocassionaly (as I have only seen fisher do) to get others in a flow then he will begin to recognize the situation.

If you play scared and passive why would someone look to trust you in getting the job done. Also realize kobe is around the guys in the locker room and he has a chance to guage his teams confidence even before they step on the court which we dont.