Which Players on tis team actually care about winning?
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Which Players on tis team actually care about winning?
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- RealGM
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Which Players on tis team actually care about winning?
From observing the players on the court and on the bench, I would say that these players still care about winning (this is in no particular order)
Nocioni - Plays harder than anyone on the team, even if by playing hard sometimes equals laying out-of-control. He's fiery and would seemingly make a good leader of the team, but seems very reluctant to step up and do this -- maybe because of the language barrier? Or maybe because he doesn't seem to consider himself anything more than a role player?
Smith - Despite him laughing on the bench duing last night's blowout, he almost always gives a good effort and has shown at least some willingness to speak up and be a leader in the locker room. But I worry that he won't speak up against Wallace if necessary.
Hinrich - He is having a very poor season, but the effort has still been there, at least most of the time. I really wish he had the personality to be the leader, to have the guts to call out Wallace (not necessarily in the media, but at least in the locker room). Just because he's quiet doesn't mean he can't show leadership -- does it? There must be guys in the NBA who are quiet/shy by nature but still are considered leaders on their teams -- aren't there? I wonder if his contract kicking in this season, or his marriage (or both) has messed him up in some way, because the dropoff in his play is too drastic for a guy who is still pretty young and has been made consistent (if minor) statistical improvement in most areas of his game in each of his previous seasons
Noah - Yes, he's immature, and his tardiness and knowledge of the plays might put him in the "not sure" category. But he plays very hard when he's given the chance and I think he's just very frustrated about how this season is going and confused about why his teammates seemed to turn on him. But now it's up to him to show that he did learn his lesson and will approach the rest of his career in a more professional manner.
Griffin - He seems to be the team's leader, but what direction is he taking them? Is he going to go along with whatever Wallace wants, or will he speak up now that there seems to be real dissention?
Deng - With Smith, the best and/or most consistent player on the team this year. He disappears in games when he should be stepping up (like last night), but I don't think that means he doesn't care. He may simply not have the mentality to be a go-to guy, preferring to be a secondary option. Like Hinrich and Gordon, he's too quiet and really needs to find a way -- ANY way -- to take some responsibility for leading the team
Sefolosha - I'm just guessing here. He doesn't play enough for me to judge his effort/lack thereof on the court. And he isn't usually jumping up and down on the bench cheering. But he seems to have a good attitude, despite (until recently) his lack of playing time
Gray - Plays hard in his limited minutes and appears to be one of the more enthusiastic guys cheering for eammates when on the bench.
Not sure about whether these guys care about the Bulls' winning
Gordon - I probably should put him in the above group, as I think he genuinely does care about winning. But I wonder whether he cares more about his contract and whether he's starting or not. Again, doesn't seem interested in being the leader of this team. Like Hinrich and Deng, he may simply not have the right temperament to be comfortable in speaking up. He seems very quiet and a little aloof.
Duhon - Usually plays hard, so I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he cares about winning. But his past discipline problems and rumored party ways makes me wonder a little bit about him...
Thomas - I don't know if he doesn't care or whether he's just screwed up from the coaches' refusal to play him
Khryapa - To be honest, I wouldn't blame him if the only hing he cares about is getting off this team, since he doesn't seem to really be a part of it anyway
Definitely doesn't care
Wallace - All he cares about is his $$$
In short, if the Bulls could just get rid of Wallace, things might turn around very quickly. Not necessarily in terms of wins and losses -- they would still be a flawed roster -- but at least in attitude and effort. Unfortunately, with his big contract and his poor rep, I just don't see any other team trading for him this year. Maybe sometime next year they will be able to move him, sine his contract will be up after the 2008-09 season.
Nocioni - Plays harder than anyone on the team, even if by playing hard sometimes equals laying out-of-control. He's fiery and would seemingly make a good leader of the team, but seems very reluctant to step up and do this -- maybe because of the language barrier? Or maybe because he doesn't seem to consider himself anything more than a role player?
Smith - Despite him laughing on the bench duing last night's blowout, he almost always gives a good effort and has shown at least some willingness to speak up and be a leader in the locker room. But I worry that he won't speak up against Wallace if necessary.
Hinrich - He is having a very poor season, but the effort has still been there, at least most of the time. I really wish he had the personality to be the leader, to have the guts to call out Wallace (not necessarily in the media, but at least in the locker room). Just because he's quiet doesn't mean he can't show leadership -- does it? There must be guys in the NBA who are quiet/shy by nature but still are considered leaders on their teams -- aren't there? I wonder if his contract kicking in this season, or his marriage (or both) has messed him up in some way, because the dropoff in his play is too drastic for a guy who is still pretty young and has been made consistent (if minor) statistical improvement in most areas of his game in each of his previous seasons
Noah - Yes, he's immature, and his tardiness and knowledge of the plays might put him in the "not sure" category. But he plays very hard when he's given the chance and I think he's just very frustrated about how this season is going and confused about why his teammates seemed to turn on him. But now it's up to him to show that he did learn his lesson and will approach the rest of his career in a more professional manner.
Griffin - He seems to be the team's leader, but what direction is he taking them? Is he going to go along with whatever Wallace wants, or will he speak up now that there seems to be real dissention?
Deng - With Smith, the best and/or most consistent player on the team this year. He disappears in games when he should be stepping up (like last night), but I don't think that means he doesn't care. He may simply not have the mentality to be a go-to guy, preferring to be a secondary option. Like Hinrich and Gordon, he's too quiet and really needs to find a way -- ANY way -- to take some responsibility for leading the team
Sefolosha - I'm just guessing here. He doesn't play enough for me to judge his effort/lack thereof on the court. And he isn't usually jumping up and down on the bench cheering. But he seems to have a good attitude, despite (until recently) his lack of playing time
Gray - Plays hard in his limited minutes and appears to be one of the more enthusiastic guys cheering for eammates when on the bench.
Not sure about whether these guys care about the Bulls' winning
Gordon - I probably should put him in the above group, as I think he genuinely does care about winning. But I wonder whether he cares more about his contract and whether he's starting or not. Again, doesn't seem interested in being the leader of this team. Like Hinrich and Deng, he may simply not have the right temperament to be comfortable in speaking up. He seems very quiet and a little aloof.
Duhon - Usually plays hard, so I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he cares about winning. But his past discipline problems and rumored party ways makes me wonder a little bit about him...
Thomas - I don't know if he doesn't care or whether he's just screwed up from the coaches' refusal to play him
Khryapa - To be honest, I wouldn't blame him if the only hing he cares about is getting off this team, since he doesn't seem to really be a part of it anyway
Definitely doesn't care
Wallace - All he cares about is his $$$
In short, if the Bulls could just get rid of Wallace, things might turn around very quickly. Not necessarily in terms of wins and losses -- they would still be a flawed roster -- but at least in attitude and effort. Unfortunately, with his big contract and his poor rep, I just don't see any other team trading for him this year. Maybe sometime next year they will be able to move him, sine his contract will be up after the 2008-09 season.
- Rerisen
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I could make a long list, but its really not worth it.
It's definitely paramount for the team to want to win and if they are not going to care, I'm going to be done with this team. But honestly, its gone beyond even caring at this point. This team is structurally broken and simply not good enough. They actually did care for the last 3 years and we saw the limits of hustle and caring with this squad was usually a 1st round exits, and one lucky 2nd round appearance upon riding a wave of revenge and momentum over a collapsing, aged, Miami team.
But before Pax can even get to making the proper changes for next year, he has to get the effort back from these guys so he can evaluate them properly. And I think the obvious way to do that for most of the guys is to bench or confront the Ben Wallace situation. It is the one thing that is sapping the whole team of its energy and drive. His careless attitude is eventually going to affect every single player otherwise. No matter if you still think only Noc and Kirk care or whoever, all the players play at times this year says otherwise.
Just like that sage of losing Jalen Rose pointed out, accepting losing becomes contagious and has a culture of its own. Once Curry, Crawford and the gang experienced it for too long, they never really overcame it. Some might question if even a player like Brand ever did. He certainly excelled in personal stats but did his Chicago years prevent him from ever learning how to become that type of leader that the Bulls lack even now? If this season keeps up, Deng, Kirk, BG and the players we think are still salvageable, might not be for much longer.
It's definitely paramount for the team to want to win and if they are not going to care, I'm going to be done with this team. But honestly, its gone beyond even caring at this point. This team is structurally broken and simply not good enough. They actually did care for the last 3 years and we saw the limits of hustle and caring with this squad was usually a 1st round exits, and one lucky 2nd round appearance upon riding a wave of revenge and momentum over a collapsing, aged, Miami team.
But before Pax can even get to making the proper changes for next year, he has to get the effort back from these guys so he can evaluate them properly. And I think the obvious way to do that for most of the guys is to bench or confront the Ben Wallace situation. It is the one thing that is sapping the whole team of its energy and drive. His careless attitude is eventually going to affect every single player otherwise. No matter if you still think only Noc and Kirk care or whoever, all the players play at times this year says otherwise.
Just like that sage of losing Jalen Rose pointed out, accepting losing becomes contagious and has a culture of its own. Once Curry, Crawford and the gang experienced it for too long, they never really overcame it. Some might question if even a player like Brand ever did. He certainly excelled in personal stats but did his Chicago years prevent him from ever learning how to become that type of leader that the Bulls lack even now? If this season keeps up, Deng, Kirk, BG and the players we think are still salvageable, might not be for much longer.
- BrooklynBulls
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I think it's evident that Noah is very focused on winning, he is clearly frustrated about losing. On the flip side right on the bottom the pile from my interpretation it has to be Wallace, it's pretty clear by his body language and contributions that he really isn't all that bothered.
I think you have to be very careful when listing players in terms of 'will to win'. You have to look a lot deeper than vocal actions, some players are just dying to win but never quite come across as wanting win. It's easy to say 'Oh Noah is dying to win because he yelled at a coach and a veteran player' but in the background you have the quiet introverted guys like Deng who I am guessing are wanting to win more than anyone.
I think it's pretty hard to rank them as we don't know or witness enough of what goes on in the background inbetween games and during practices.
I could throw a handful of names out there but it isn't worth it, the entire team has to want to win and thats clearly not the case.
I think you have to be very careful when listing players in terms of 'will to win'. You have to look a lot deeper than vocal actions, some players are just dying to win but never quite come across as wanting win. It's easy to say 'Oh Noah is dying to win because he yelled at a coach and a veteran player' but in the background you have the quiet introverted guys like Deng who I am guessing are wanting to win more than anyone.
I think it's pretty hard to rank them as we don't know or witness enough of what goes on in the background inbetween games and during practices.
I could throw a handful of names out there but it isn't worth it, the entire team has to want to win and thats clearly not the case.
- kyrv
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Not sure which thread this belongs in, but yesterday I was going to post the divisions of the team (yes, ironically, before the 'altercation'). Someone else in the altercation was the first to mention this may be a divided team - I think it is divided now or is heading that way.
Really Young: Tyrus/Thabo/Noah/Thabo
Young core: Luol/BenG/Noc/Kirk/Du
Vets: Ben W/Joe S/Griff
?: VK, Nichols
The young core, as people have noted, don't really have a leader. If I had to pick one, I would say it is Duhon, but that's if I had to pick one. I think they all want to win.
The youngsters, I believe none voted on the Noah thing, all want to win, all want to play. They see what we do - veteran entitlement minutes while the team is losing. Bad.
Vets - This is the group I question: Big Ben, Griff, Joe Smith. I believe they 'want' to win, they prefer to win, but, I don't know what they are willing to do to win. Missing layups during a blowout is not funny. Being blown out regularly, is not funny. Howvever, they've been there, blowouts happen, maybe they are trying to make the most of it?
I think they all care about winning, and if they don't, I don't think we can really care. It does seem like someone like Ben Wallace cares less, but, to be fair, that's hard to say.
More of an issue may be the division of the team, as someone mentioned in the altercation thread.
Really Young: Tyrus/Thabo/Noah/Thabo
Young core: Luol/BenG/Noc/Kirk/Du
Vets: Ben W/Joe S/Griff
?: VK, Nichols
The young core, as people have noted, don't really have a leader. If I had to pick one, I would say it is Duhon, but that's if I had to pick one. I think they all want to win.
The youngsters, I believe none voted on the Noah thing, all want to win, all want to play. They see what we do - veteran entitlement minutes while the team is losing. Bad.
Vets - This is the group I question: Big Ben, Griff, Joe Smith. I believe they 'want' to win, they prefer to win, but, I don't know what they are willing to do to win. Missing layups during a blowout is not funny. Being blown out regularly, is not funny. Howvever, they've been there, blowouts happen, maybe they are trying to make the most of it?
I think they all care about winning, and if they don't, I don't think we can really care. It does seem like someone like Ben Wallace cares less, but, to be fair, that's hard to say.
More of an issue may be the division of the team, as someone mentioned in the altercation thread.
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- Magilla_Gorilla
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Honestly, I think the only player that doesn't care about winning is Wallace.
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- bullzman23
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I think most of the guys care, but it seems to be hurting Noah, Noce, Duhon, and Griffin the most.
I don't really understand why you've put Gordon and Hinrich in different groups. I know some people think Gordon, is concerned about his money and being in the SL, but he's always been professional in what he says and does. I don't know what Hinrich has done to place him above Gordon in this respect. Same with Luol.
I don't really understand why you've put Gordon and Hinrich in different groups. I know some people think Gordon, is concerned about his money and being in the SL, but he's always been professional in what he says and does. I don't know what Hinrich has done to place him above Gordon in this respect. Same with Luol.
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- RealGM
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bullzman23 wrote:I think most of the guys care, but it seems to be hurting Noah, Noce, Duhon, and Griffin the most.
I don't really understand why you've put Gordon and Hinrich in different groups. I know some people think Gordon, is concerned about his money and being in the SL, but he's always been professional in what he says and does. I don't know what Hinrich has done to place him above Gordon in this respect. Same with Luol.
Agreed about Gordon vs Hinrich and Deng.
The only person that cares more about money than winning is Ben Wallace.
Tyrus/Noah/Gray = really want the playing time and they play hard to win games.
BG/Hinrich/Duhon/Hinrich - they want to win but they just don't have that killer instinct or "Hate to lose" mentality yet.
Noch - wants to win but sometimes tries to do WAY too much and it lot of times backfires.
Joe Smith - wants to win as well but he is 1 year too late on the Bulls team.
Khryapa/Nichols etc just want a chance.
So the only 1 player that I can definitly think of is Ben Wallace- All he cares about MONEY and his pay Check - his entitled minutes etc.
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- RealGM
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bullzman23 wrote:I think most of the guys care, but it seems to be hurting Noah, Noce, Duhon, and Griffin the most.
I don't really understand why you've put Gordon and Hinrich in different groups. I know some people think Gordon, is concerned about his money and being in the SL, but he's always been professional in what he says and does. I don't know what Hinrich has done to place him above Gordon in this respect. Same with Luol.
I was going to put BG in the definitely cares group, and probably should of.
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Magilla, girly, cool...I don't see your names in the Wallace list thread.
Rerisen, I don't see yours either...I think I saw some very negative BW comments that you had recently.
Rerisen, I don't see yours either...I think I saw some very negative BW comments that you had recently.
Reinsdorf & Co. - sell the team!!
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/12/11/chicago-bulls-phoenix-suns-bad-ownership-robert-sarver-jerry-reinsdorf
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/12/11/chicago-bulls-phoenix-suns-bad-ownership-robert-sarver-jerry-reinsdorf
- DuckIII
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BrooklynBulls wrote:The only players on this team who don't care about winning are Wallace, Nichols, Curry, and Khryapa. The latter 3 just want a chance to play, and the former is a jackass.
Thats what I was going to write.
By the way, your location is hilarious. It begs the question, however: Why do you keep your pubic hairs in a pony tail? I can't speak from personal experience, but I would imagine that it could make for more than occassional discomfort.
Once a pickle, never a cucumber again.
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DuckIII wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Thats what I was going to write.
By the way, your location is hilarious. It begs the question, however: Why do you keep your pubic hairs in a pony tail? I can't speak from personal experience, but I would imagine that it could make for more than occassional discomfort.
Sometimes you have to suffer for fashion.
- Magilla_Gorilla
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BrooklynBulls wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Sometimes you have to suffer for fashion.
LOL... I hadn't noticed your location before.
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