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Which Signing was worse

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SherronShabazz
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Post#41 » by SherronShabazz » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:49 pm

ice9 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I'm not saying Noah would average 10 rebs given Wallace's minutes. What I am saying, is if Tyrus/Noah got 33 minutes a night, they could put up comparable reb/blk/stl numbers without sucking bollocks on offense, and the Bulls would be a much better team because of it. Not only would they match the actual numbers, they are also flat out better on D than Wallace, who has been awful.
Robinson was a mistake and a waste of space. Wallace was a mistake that is costing us more money, more wins, and hurting us in the long-term because we aren't developing these guys.


neither one of those guys is a better defender than ben wallace. how many pump fakes do they have to fall for for you to see that? i have hopes that they will be good defenders. but they arent better.

offense.. im with u. they are better.
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Post#42 » by Magilla_Gorilla » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:51 pm

SherronShabazz wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



neither one of those guys is a better defender than ben wallace. how many pump fakes do they have to fall for for you to see that? i have hopes that they will be good defenders. but they arent better.

offense.. im with u. they are better.



Sorry, but after watching Ben Wallace just not care in these last 5 or 6 games, I gotta believe that Noah could defend the 5 spot better than Ben.
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Post#43 » by SherronShabazz » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:54 pm

ATRAIN53 wrote:Wallace

E Rob was not an All-Star, NBA Champ or former 4-Time DPOY. He was an unproven talent signed on potential.

Wallace was decorated and expected to take a .500 team to the next level

-= original quote snipped =-



49 games was only 8 better than the .500 the team finished the year before without him.
15mil for an 8 game improvement is not taking it to the next level.

Miami was done by the playoffs last season. Wade and Shaq both played injured. They have won a paltry 8 games since then. I think without Wallace the Bulls still win that series.

that 4 game 1st round sweep over a hobbled, Championship hungover Miami squad is way overrated.

if Wallace had been effective during the final 10 games of the season last year the Bulls could have won the division.


yeah but.. 41 wins in 06 the bulls were 7th best in the east. 49 wins made them 3rd best in the east. it counts for something.

i disagree about beating them without ben.. did you trust sweetney to guard shaq?
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Post#44 » by ice9 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:04 pm

SherronShabazz wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



neither one of those guys is a better defender than ben wallace. how many pump fakes do they have to fall for for you to see that? i have hopes that they will be good defenders. but they arent better.

offense.. im with u. they are better.


How many times do we have to watch Wallace fail to close out on shooters?
How many times do we have to watch him as he allows easy layups?
How many times do we have to watch him fail to rotate?
How many times do we have to watch him fail to box out?

Noah and Tyrus are far from perfect, they can be over aggressive, bite on pumps, goaltend, foul, etc, but there is a huge difference between them and Wallace: they give a ****. They are in their man's face making him earn whatever he gets. Wallace is consistently torched without even pretending that he's giving effort, and his laziness breaks down the defense more than Tyrus of Noah's inexperience.
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Post#45 » by dougthonus » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:30 pm

Wallace being allowed to be negative is on the team. That's how they react, not the signing itself.


I'm not sure what you mean. How could the Bulls react in such a way that this signing wouldn't be negative? His play on the court is awful. When he plays he is a negative when it comes to impacting games, and he's a negative when it comes to limiting the development of other players. The only way to remove these negatives is not to play him. If he doesn't play then you have effectively paid him 60 million dollars for nothing. This ignores the negative influence in the locker room which is also readily apparent to me. I think that makes things even worse, and how do you account for that? Just hope the players ignore it? Even if htey did he's not providing any value through his on court play.

One year good, *half* of second year bad. You are assuming the Bulls will do nothing (sounds like?).


First, I disagree that he had a good year. Certainly, he had no where near a year that was worth 16 million, so the Bulls lost, IMO, at least 8 million of value from his contract based on his on-court ability last year.

Secondly, it's clear at this point that his value is below expiring contract, so any thing we can do to trade him will amount into us taking back something we don't want or giving up something useful to dump him. The only way this would change is if you believe that we can trade him for something good or you believe that he will again become good. I think the combined chance of those things is below 1%.

Anyway again it's a tallest midget argument, and doesn't matter, I'm concerned with what the Bulls do now, or don't do. I'm not assuming they will do nothing.


I'm also more concerned with what we do, but that's not really the topic it hand, so I'm answering the question. The effect of the Ben Wallace signing is 1000x worse than the effect of the Robinson signing.
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Post#46 » by ptpablo » Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:41 pm

SherronShabazz wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



neither one of those guys is a better defender than ben wallace. how many pump fakes do they have to fall for for you to see that? i have hopes that they will be good defenders. but they arent better.

offense.. im with u. they are better.


I get your point. But I see it like this...
Ben Wallace doesn't fall for anything on defense because he does not do anything on defense. The blocks he makes are gimme blocks that Noah and TT can make easily. He does not leave the floor ever. Her does not foul ever. Because if he did that he cannot get his stats 3/5/1/1. he has zero impact on the game. Hence his horrible +/-.
He single handedly ruined the Bulls post defense last year by refusing to front. He gets blown away by the bigtime post scorers because he is 6'7'' w/o hops.
Give me a young athletic defensive player that makes inpact plays and fouls. We have Smith, Noc, and Gray to back them up if they foul out. Put Wallace in street clothes.
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Post#47 » by The Evidence » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:14 pm

Wallace is by far the worst signing. Not only did he get overpaid, we boosted his ego by playing a meaningless bell toll everytime he grabbed an uncontested rebound, put him on billboards, allowed him to wear a headband, allowed him to conduct player meetings, etc etc.
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Post#48 » by Red Larrivee » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:16 pm

ice9 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



How many times do we have to watch Wallace fail to close out on shooters?
How many times do we have to watch him as he allows easy layups?
How many times do we have to watch him fail to rotate?
How many times do we have to watch him fail to box out?


Are we talking about the whole team here or Ben Wallace? Because either way everybody on this team does the exact same things that you just listed.

There hasn't been one good defender on this team all season. I know this board is in full go with the "Ben Wallace is the reason for all the problems" movement, but it's really unfair to pin the whole teams problems on him, when everyone is doing the exact same thing.
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Post#49 » by ice9 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:53 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Are we talking about the whole team here or Ben Wallace? Because either way everybody on this team does the exact same things that you just listed.

There hasn't been one good defender on this team all season. I know this board is in full go with the "Ben Wallace is the reason for all the problems" movement, but it's really unfair to pin the whole teams problems on him, when everyone is doing the exact same thing.


Ben Wallace is one of the worst at all these. Miller and Aldridge and others score easily because he refuses to chase them out to the perimeter. He won't even be within 10 feet of them as they drain shots. Most of his rebounds are gimmes, he doesn't box out and gets less tough, in traffic rebounds than Gray/Noah/Thomas. He doesn't challenge guards driving to the basket. Our scheme relies on funneling the penetrator towards the big men, and Wallace just steps aside.

Nocioni and Gordon aren't good defensively either, Deng and Hinrich have both taken a step back, but these guys also rely on the scheme (and thus the big behind them) to stop their men (they also contribute on the other end of the floor). They can't rely on Wallace and it's breaking the whole scheme. He also stopped us from fronting the post all the time. Instead of fronting the post and doubling from the weakside (which allowed time for everyone to rotate), we send it from a guard on the strongside, leaving a 3 pt shooter wide open without people rotating and an easy pass away to the point even the worst passing big men can get an assist out of it.

Wallace has 2 jobs: rebound and defend. He needs to do both very well to make up for how bad he is offensively. He doesn't do either well at all, and his offense is getting worse. On top of that, we have to include him in the offense to feed his ego. He'd give even less effort if we didn't let him shoot and set picks (half of his shots are so bad they should just count as turnovers) that hurt the team as a whole. And when one of our guards actually does drive and break down the D (a real rarity), they have Ben Wallace to pass to. He can't dunk, he airballs layups, and if he's fouled, we're lucky to get a point outta the pair of free throws.

Wallace isn't the only problem with this team. We wouldn't be a 50 win team if we dumped him, but we sure as hell wouldn't be 8 games under .500. Hinrich, Deng, and Gordon need to pull their heads outta their asses, Nocioni has to learn to pass and give less help D, Tyrus needs to be consistent, Duhon needs to go home, and the coaching staff needs to be replaced (the rotation and sets are the same as the Skiles era, and those were the main problems with Skiles). However, Wallace is the biggest problem. He kills us on offense, on defense, in the locker room, and is stopping us from developing our only hope for the future. The coaching staff needs to open their ****in eyes and realize that playing Wallace more isn't the solution; forcing him to ride the pine is step one. The entitlement minutes he gets are nauseating. The lack of effort he gives, his flat out suckiness, and matador defense are all inexcusable. Yet he gets a by and younger, better, more enthusiastic players are constantly being singled out every time they make a mistake. He's a disgrace to the jersey.

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