Another JJ thread....

[Happyfoosball]

JJ is quickly becoming the Darko of this year's team on this board. The more you JJ supporters keep making threads like this, the more it's going to back fire on you in the end. Other posters here are going to end up pointing out his glaring weaknesses and every game he plays in he will be highly criticized for any mistakes.

He already is. By his coach. SVG looks for reasons to not play Redick. He obviously doesn't like him personally and he is letting that influence his basketball decisions.

[LiteHedded]

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He already is. By his coach. SVG looks for reasons to not play Redick. He obviously doesn't like him personally and he is letting that influence his basketball decisions.

I don't know that that's obvious at all

[mhectorgato]

He already is. By his coach. SVG looks for reasons to not play Redick. He obviously doesn't like him personally and he is letting that influence his basketball decisions.

link ?

[craig01]

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SVG looks for reasons to not play Redick. He obviously doesn't like him personally and he is letting that influence his basketball decisions.

That isn't logical.

I'd like to see Redick play too, but I doubt SVG has a vendetta against any player.

[LBPTarHeel27]

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Except the players you mentioned had a chance to show it. Redick hasn't gotten that chance. You don't know that he can't do it because he hasn't played 1/10th enough to see.

If you are going to talk about what we have seen and have not seen then the argument is easy...

If we are going on your statement that he hasn't had a chance to prove himself....

What is more logical....a guy sitting the bench because he is unable to perform at the level needed or a guy sitting the bench because __________ (insert any reason you would say he is on the bench).

His own coach called him out as being soft. If at that point you still are not motivated enough to get to the level you need to be, then that is on the player. SVG is not going to bench a guy that, as all of the JJ lovers think, is a prolific scorer and can drain shots in the NBA like he did in college.

What is one thing that every player says about the transition from the college game to the NBA? "It is a much faster game". In college JJ would have SOME (don't twist my words and make it say "shut down") trouble when a team could put a good, athletic defender on him. Everyone in the NBA that will be on him is going to be ATLEAST at that level.

Look at each NBA team and who you think would be guarding JJ. How many of those guys are not stronger, quicker, faster, longer and so on? JJ has clearly not improved since college, otherwise we would have seen or heard about it. As a player he has not gotten worse, everyone else around him is just a sh*t ton better. I am not saying JJ is a horrible basketball player. I am saying he is a horrible NBA player.

If he gets traded to one of the bottom 3 or 4 teams in the NBA then ya....he will probably get his minutes (15-20) and have a fluke night every few games where he hits some 3's. But that will be the highlight of his career.

[Lord Ashram]

That fact that you know that a guy who has barely played at all and no-one has really seen play any meaningful minutes is a horrible NBA player is a joke.

[oakfanintheeast]

That fact that you know that a guy who has barely played at all and no-one has really seen play any meaningful minutes is a horrible NBA player is a joke.

Redick has below average tools for the nba. he could play zero minutes the whole year or a million minutes this year, and it would be more than obvious.

[TNMagicFan]

Redick has below average tools for the nba.

[LBPTarHeel27]

That fact that you know that a guy who has barely played at all and no-one has really seen play any meaningful minutes is a horrible NBA player is a joke.

The fact that you keep saying what I say is a joke and never come up with anything to prove what I say otherwise....is a joke.

All you JJ lovers do is knock and insult those who speak realistically and point out what is in front of us and never come up with a meaningful argument.

Just answer my simple question....

What makes more sense: JJ sitting the bench because he isn't cut out for the NBA or JJ sitting the bench because _______ (insert any realistic reason you may have here).

[magicfanejc42]

Tar Heel, your arguement is not well thought out, JJ has NOT come into a game and been "Shut down" and even if he was, that is the point of having a player like him. To take a teams best perimeter defnder and take him away from the paint, and off Lewis or Hedo..

JJ was NOT called soft, JJ has actually been complimented on how hard he plays and foir the effort he brings.. SVG's biggest problem with JJ is lateral quickness.. The ability to stay in front of his man, and his midget arms don't help.

Look, I know you prbably HATE JJ due to the fact your a heels fan.. But look at JJ's game, and can you honestly, give me a game when JJ was in and you could say, "WOW, Bogans, Evans or Dooling are leaps and bounds better!! and holy crap, their defense is SHUT DOWN!! " One time can I think back, and that game is when Bogans played Bryant well in the fourth. But besides that, most teams have their SG or PG go off for their career or season best EVERY game.


Think, which would you rather have? I'll give you two scenarios..

Ben Gordon - 40 points Bogans- 8 points on 1-9 three point shots...

Ben Gordon - 43 points JJ - 15 points 4-7 threes...

That is the more realistic stat line if JJ had the minutes instead...


See, the thing is, if the player works his hardest, keeps a hand in the opposing players face, and is a consistent threat on offense, he deserves a REAL chance to play..

Look around the NBA..

Daniel Gibson- three point shooting, no defense
Damon Jones- three point shooting, no defense
95% of SUPERSTARS Offense, NO DEFENSE.
Kyle Korver- three point shooting, no defense
Mike Miller- all around scorer, mediocre defender
Juan Carlos Navarro- scorer, no defense
Mehmet Okur- ALL-STAR, NO defense
Cuttino Mobley- three point shooter, No defense
Matt Carroll- three point shooting, no defense..
Old time Garrity
Kapono

The list goes on, but the worst part is, at least this guy we have tries on defense, and what's even worse, he could and most likely is a MUCH better shooter than the majority of them...

There is really no excuse for JJ to not get minutes anymore. Our team is in a downfall, and cannot seem to execute on offense for LOOOONNNNNGGG stretches.. But our most pure scorer cannot get off of the bench..

This team is to the point where they have no defense to why JJ doesn't play.

[magicfanejc42]

Oh, and another thing, the whole "JJ doesn't have to the tools for the NBA." Maybe you can hold those comments back until he goes into and NBA and simply does nothing but just suck. He has not ever done anything for this team on the court other than produce.. I am sick of people saying the whole tools bull just to say it....


Look at Pavlovic for the Cavs, their fans would have given him away for a bag of poop.. Then all of a sudden he has a string of good games due to getting time, and BAM! He is beloved by all fans and a vital part of that team.

Look a Vujacic, He is not that great, but given the minutes he does VERY well for his team.

Once again, those are two players that can score and not play defense.... tools my ass... JJ has the greatest tool in the game... and our team cannot find 10 minutes to let him use it... it's like having a bull dozer, but instead you want to use a shovel....

[maginno]

The fact that you keep saying what I say is a joke and never come up with anything to prove what I say otherwise....is a joke.

"JJ didn't do a damn thing in college" Thats the joke spoken by yours truly. Honestly I said I wouldn't bother with you again but its clear in your own head you have this idea you've made some brilliant point. Observe

Just answer my simple question....

What makes more sense: JJ sitting the bench because he isn't cut out for the NBA or JJ sitting the bench because _______ (insert any realistic reason you may have here).

Simple elementary and obvious. JJ is by all rights a rookie. Is it reasonable to think that the year under the horrid coaching of Brian Hill sitting on the bench even when we were losing should count? So your questions ends

JJ is sitting on the bench because his defense stinks on a bad defensive team NOT because he cannot score. Plenty rookies sit in their first year of NBA tutelage. In order to claim that JJ had a decent shot of getting ready for the NBA you have to make the Illogical assumption that the year under Brian Hill counts beans. Most everyone here will agree that anything under Brian Hill shouldn't mean squat and this season is less than three months old.

SO the truth is Like I believe Craig has said No one knows what will happen with JJ. You can put way your crystal ball and projections. Anyone with eyes can see its borne of your hatred for him in regard to your tarheels. None of your criteria makes any difference. You are the brilliant fellow that said JJ was too short for the NBA , That a guard should be evaluated on the basis of his ability too block shots and that one of the best players at observing whats happening on the floor has no court vision.

The evidence is overwhelming against your preconceived notion. JJ gets shots off just fine. Mugsey bogues was waaay too short and Harold Miner was crazy athletic and couldn't cut it.

and while you are quoting the coach on one thing how about the coach specifying why JJ isn't playing - defense. Not athleticism, not wingspan not failure to block shots. and what did he say in regard to the fact that his players don't play defense in many of the games - I might have to reconsider playing him - jj . Now does it really take too much mental capability to understand that JJ doesn't play because of defense? When the coach as much as says so?

You can repeat until the cows come home that Stan said JJ is soft. Thats Stan's job. To motivate his players. You aren't going to pull the wool over any real Magic fan who follows the team . JJ worked his tail off over the summer and that same coach said he was impressed with his work and that he had done everything he asked him to. Only a Johnny come lately Magic fan won't know that there was real discussion during the preseasoon that JJ might have been winning the starting slot. That be the truth son. Take the facts and smoke them but you aren't fooling anyone who knows the Magic.

JJ has played less that 13 and a half hours in this league. Thats most peoples point. Those are the cold hard numbers you have no proof to disregard. So what makes more sense that a fan can determine the impossibility of a prolific three point shooter making it in the NBA or that the fan is not using common sense to recognize all the evidence is not in?

the latter is the obvious answer even if the fan doesn't understand rudimentary logic.

[oakfanintheeast]

Oh, and another thing, the whole "JJ doesn't have to the tools for the NBA." Maybe you can hold those comments back until he goes into and NBA and simply does nothing but just suck. He has not ever done anything for this team on the court other than produce.. I am sick of people saying the whole tools bull just to say it....


Look at Pavlovic for the Cavs, their fans would have given him away for a bag of poop.. Then all of a sudden he has a string of good games due to getting time, and BAM! He is beloved by all fans and a vital part of that team.

Look a Vujacic, He is not that great, but given the minutes he does VERY well for his team.

Once again, those are two players that can score and not play defense.... tools my ass... JJ has the greatest tool in the game... and our team cannot find 10 minutes to let him use it... it's like having a bull dozer, but instead you want to use a shovel....

you dont need to have redick in nba games to see he doesnt have the tools to be an average player.

from nbadraft.net:: Doesn't have great size or athleticism for the 2 at the next level ... He doesn't possess the ball handling or passing skills to run the point

[magicfanejc42]

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you dont need to have redick in nba games to see he doesnt have the tools to be an average player.

from nbadraft.net:: Doesn't have great size or athleticism for the 2 at the next level ... He doesn't possess the ball handling or passing skills to run the point

[LBPTarHeel27]

You guys are ridiculous...

If I have moved past the fact that he played for Duke and see him as a Magic player now....I don't know how you guys can't.

The only explination anyone can come up with for what I say is that I am such a Duke and JJ hater.

Does this mean I hate Grant Hill, Luol Deng, Chris Duhon, Elton Brand, and so on?

No, I would love for any one of those players to be on our team.

I WANT TO SEE JJ PLAY.

The bottom line is that he won't and I am just saying it is pretty damn logical that the reason is his play....

Simple elementary and obvious. JJ is by all rights a rookie. Is it reasonable to think that the year under the horrid coaching of Brian Hill sitting on the bench even when we were losing should count? So your questions ends

You are really going to use that as your grounds for an argument? That his first year "doesn't count"? Wow.

SO the truth is Like I believe Craig has said No one knows what will happen with JJ. You can put way your crystal ball and projections. Anyone with eyes can see its borne of your hatred for him in regard to your tarheels. None of your criteria makes any difference. You are the brilliant fellow that said JJ was too short for the NBA , That a guard should be evaluated on the basis of his ability too block shots and that one of the best players at observing whats happening on the floor has no court vision.

I don't start the argument of what JJ is capable of doing...I only chime in when the JJ homers make a thread asking why he doesn't play. I simple give the logical answer.

It was actually some one else on the other thread that made the block argument...but even then you are twisting their words. They said in college you need to show signs of the abilities to shoot, dribble, block, pass, steal and so on. He never said JJ will suck because he can't block a shot in the NBA.

Also a direct question to you....

How do you know JJ is"one of the best players at observing whats happening on the floor" (direct quote)? You claim to have no knowledge of college basketball.

In college, JJ was able to see where the next pick for him was coming from...he wasn't finding teammates open all over the floor.

Every time you bring up a player that is short, or shoots really well too, or who ever you bring up as an argument for JJ you are naming players that had more than 1 skill. JJ has 1 skill.

Unfortunately I gatta head to work. I will have more on this later of course.

[oakfanintheeast]

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Those BOLDS are from pre draft, actually, those are made up DURING the college years.. You are telling me when JJ is on the court you are NOT impressed with the court vision he has?

Also, maybe you are trying to be ignorant, but you see, you point out the defensive flaws.. Which we all know he has, but the point of this WHOLE debate is, is he really THAT much of a difference from Bogans on defense? NO... which means, he NEEDS to play, our offense is not executing, and due to the fact Lewis is going to be going inside more, it makes more sense to put anotehr REAL shooter on the floor... No just some guy who can chuck them.

You and Tar Heel hate him, I understand...It's more of a college thing, or bitterness towards Otis, but you both are using Hollow facts, opinions and old " quotes" .... I know you are both smart people, Friggin think, we need a JJ type of player on the court.. A leader, a winner, a hustle, a shooter, and good passer with the never give up mentality... You don't see JJ laughing after a heartbreaking loss, or a loss in general.. People need to take this team seriously, first step towards that is getting serious players on the court, who will do ANYTHING to win... JJ is the emphasis of that..

1. tools dont magically change over a period of time, either you have them, or you dont.. redick doesnt.


2 Redick never won anything, why is he a winner?

3. Coaches are hired to win. coaches dont have job security, do you think van gundy wants to throw games?

[maginno]

I pass on going back and forth with your banter. Honestly the thing I find annoying about you is that you constantly appeal to "proof" and "logic" without offering A SHRED of either.

SO lets review the facts and just the facts. JJ doesn't play much by the coach's decision. Why? the logical course of action since its the coach that determines his playing time is to ASK THE COACH. What has the coach said? No athleticism? can't create his own shot? doesn't have the tools? NO. He has said he doesn't play because of his defense. Case closed

O B V I O U S. Good night. It doesn't even involve logic. A child could ask Stan why JJ doesn't play and when Stan says his defense isn't good enough and we are weak on defense they'd get it straight off.


Second fact. Has anyone noticed this season that JJ has difficulty getting off a shot when attempting to? Nope. and yet every one and his dog, pet canary and old grandma will tell you that he spreads the floor when Dwight is in. Why? Because his defender defends him on the perimeter. NBA DEFENDERS. So lets blow up the whole silliness. When last have you seen a three point shooter create his own shot? OVERWHELMINGLY In the NBA three point attempts are set jumpers. there are some screen and pops which JJ is just dandy at and the occasional step back behind the line when the team must have a three but buy a tape, watch a game, buy a book most three point shots are from being relatively open. listening to you you would think JJ is so unathletic he could never take it to the basket in the NBA for a layup. Don't know who that was I saw doing it in the NBA a few time.

Does JJ have the tools to be a three point shooter in this league? Of course not
When last has a high percentage three point shooter flaked out of the NBA?

So who is being ridiculous? and who was more ridiculous than you here?

"You, nor has anyone else, seen enough of JJ in the NBA to say that his shot will be just as good in the pros as it was in college"

Observe true logic at work. You have seen enough of him in college and in the NBA to say that he will NEVER be able to make it the league because of what he has not shown but the shooting he has shown n college and in the same limited minutes in the NBA should be disregarded because the minutes are not sufficient to draw a conclusion.


Talk about ridiculous hypocritcal twisted logic.

[maginno]

You are really going to use that as your grounds for an argument? That his first year "doesn't count"? Wow.

Don't be silly. If a man works for an airlines and doesn't take up a boeing even ten hours his first year isn't he a rookie in flying? IF a cop doesn't hit the streets in his first year is he a veteran street cop? IF a first year non superstar player in the nba is injured and doesn't play but a few hours isn't he still a rookie and does the logic change if he is not injured but still on the bench the same time? What determine experience? sitting on the bench? Your logic continue to stagger, defy and convolute the meaning of the word. The guy has not played. Everyone admits to that being an issue in determining whether he will make it in the NBA. He has produced in limited minutes on the offensive side.

JJ having one of the best court vision on this team is based on the games he has played for the Magic. Last season in particular I was struck by the kind of passes he made which CLEARLY demonstrated he saw the floor and quite a few instances better than Jameer was demonstrating. No college watching required (again I neither watch nor follow college games. your homer charge is false) based all on NBA games. Both popular magic boards have routinely floated him playing at the point because he is smart and sees the floor. I don't think he is quick enough. His strength is out near the perimeter but it makes the point about his court vision.

Finally

If I have moved past the fact that he played for Duke and see him as a Magic player now

Thank you for the admission that you had issues with JJ and Duke that you had to move on from. The proof that you haven't done what you claim? Proof positive?

"JJ himself, or his team, never did a damn thing at Duke"

You have no point and no logic. Both require sufficient evidence (at least to intelligent people) which you do not have in claiming against all NBA history that a prolific outside shooter with a great stroke will never ever make it in the NBA. What you have on your side is pure ignorance in making such a blanket statement.

Point. Set. Match

[Happyfoosball]

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That isn't logical.

I'd like to see Redick play too, but I doubt SVG has a vendetta against any player.

Then why is it that everytime Redick plays lights out SVG is like "oh well we have to get him in there more" then he'll get him in there until Redick has one bad stretch, then you won't see him for 4 or 5 more games. SVG looks for reasons to keep Redick on the bench. I've seen coaches do this before on all levels.

[mhectorgato]

Then why is it that everytime Redick plays lights out SVG is like "oh well we have to get him in there more" then he'll get him in there until Redick has one bad stretch, then you won't see him for 4 or 5 more games. SVG looks for reasons to keep Redick on the bench. I've seen coaches do this before on all levels.

Does he personally dislike Cook also? How about Auggie?