Bucks Fan: Question about Thabo/Thomas availability

[coldfish]

Tyrus isn't going to play much for Chicago until he gets a defined role, and understands said role.

He is a lost player right now, where anything of value that he brings to the team is lost by his inability to grasp and understand how we are trying to play the game.

It is sad.

Oh come on, on his worst day he is still better than Duhon or Wallace.

Just so we are clear I am not talking stats, I'll give you a case in point:
Rashard Lewis faked a jump shot in the Orlando game. Deng rushed out to challenge the shot and Rashard drove by him. Ben Wallace was camped in the lane and you could see his head turn and look at Rashard, nearly 20 feet away. Rashard drove all the way to the hoop and even made a reverse layup while Wallace barely took a step.

Later in the game, Tyrus was in the exact same position. He correctly read the play and stepped in to draw a charge.

What I find sad is that Ben Wallace continues to get significant playing time ahead of players who are significantly better than him in both skill and willingness to execute the scheme.

Then we have to explain to Bucks fans why, because the situation really does defy logic.

[REDDzone]

-= original quote snipped =-




When did 18 & 10 become 20 & 10? He's having a great start to the month, no need to artificially inflate his stats.

I forgot the exact thing, but if you drop like the first game of January or something like that its 19.something and 10 with a few blocks for January.

I didn't think it was that serious.

[Simulack]

A straight up Thomas for Bogut trade would be great. I'd personally be willing to give up Thabo in that trade as well, not sure about Pax though.

I actually laughed out loud read this, thanks.

I've been critical of Bogut earlier this year (although he is proving me wrong so far the last 6-7 games) and even then I realized his trade value was about 10x TT's. Throwing in a questionable prospect with negligible trade value doesn't even out the disparity between value there.

C'mon Bulls fans.

Yi & Bogut for Tyrus, Thabo and V.K. works in the trade checker too.

What the hell can you even say to that? The first thing I did was starting humming the Devo song with "one chromosome too many" in it.

[Ayt]

Bogut is really being undervalued by many here, just as TT is being undervalued by many on the Bucks board.

[Neusch23]

fish, I didn't see that play, I had to miss part of the game because on Wed I play basketball in a rec league but I have also saw NUMEROUS others where he is wandering around with his head on a swivel trying to figure out where he is supposed to be while another player gets beat because they are helping to position him.

Fact of the matter is that Noah can be a lockeroom problem, but he will still get burn for being able to stay on the floor with much less mistakes.

People who make ton of mental errors should not play until they choose to learn.

If they can't learn, if they are good enough will would then cater around them....is Tyrus that good?

So many of the stats that he has put up have been caused by him leaving his area of the defense, or offense to make said play.

This can get him on sports center, or a trip to the bench. For every huge blocked shot he gives up the lane for a lay up.

I would love to break down a game with you so we can point out what each other sees....I can just see the look on my wifes face when I tell her that I am going to head to chicago to break down game film!!! Its just a 4 hour drive from Green Bay!

[Sonny_D1]

I've been critical of Bogut earlier this year (although he is proving me wrong so far the last 6-7 games)

This is a very telling statement and I wish some of us Bulls fans would take heed to what you're saying.

What's telling is that Bogut has been in the league for 2.5 years and has played 5923 minutes (31.7mpg), yet you've been critical of him this year up until the last 6-7 games. In contrast, TT has been in the league for 1.5 years, has played 1487 minutes (14.3mpg), yet many are ready to declare the kid a failure.

Point being Bogut has played 4X, that's FOUR TIMES the minutes TT has over his career, yet Buck fans have still been critical of his game up until recently. As bad as TT has looked at times, he's shown flashes of excellence as well, especially when given somewhat consistent PT. Let's not give up on him so quickly.

All I'm saying is Bogut is a very nice player, a very good player in fact, but I wouldn't give up TT's potential for him. TT has the ability to change the game, on both ends of the court. For those that say I'm undervaluing Bogut, I don't think so, I think I have him pegged just right. If anything, I think everyone except some of us Bulls fans are greatly undervaluing the ability of TT, and quite frankly it's a result of him not playing.

I just hope we're the ones to reap the benefits once he finally does get on the court.

That's not to say I wouldn't trade TT in the right package or for the right player. To me, Andrew Bogut isn't that player.

[guypithecus]

i am a bucks fan and am wondering what it would take to get Thomas and Tabo from you...and be realistic if all possible and this years first is off limits as to we suck and it will be a loto

I'm agreeable to any trade that involves Ben Wallace.

[JeremyB0001]

TT is a more 3/4 combo forward who can block shots and create steals

TT is a putrid offensive player

You're misinformed about Tyrus' game, which will lead you to undervalue his game and thus we won't be able to get on the same page in trade talks.

And the difference between him and Thomas is that while Tyrus might learn to score, we already know that Bogut can.

I can't agree entirely Duck. Bogut, in his best season, is scoring 15.6 points per 40 with a 54.7% TS% while Tyrus was at 15.1 per 40 with a 52.1% TS% last season (it's hard to know what to make of his regression this season). Tyrus might or might not learn to score more, but if he doesn't, he's still capable of contributing on that end of the floor, as opposed to a player like Wallace.

They are in similar positions career wise as far as teams/expectations/playing time/production so I felt a swap of them would or could be beneficial to both teams and players.

You're dead wrong. CV has played close to three times as many minutes as Tyrus and is two full years older. That makes all the difference in the world.

Why doesn't he get any minutes if he has all this potential?

I thought he would after Skiles got fired.

Poor coaching.

fish, I didn't see that play, I had to miss part of the game because on Wed I play basketball in a rec league but I have also saw NUMEROUS others where he is wandering around with his head on a swivel trying to figure out where he is supposed to be while another player gets beat because they are helping to position him.

It's little reasons like this that Coldfish is an amazing poster: he can back up his opinions with specific examples. His anecdote has tons of credibility whereas your broad assertions about what you generally see, which conflict some with my recollections of what I've seen, aren't nearly as credible.

[magee]

If Thabo is one the block, and I doubt he is, trade him to Phoenix for a future first rounder. I know they have been on his nuts ever since their international scout got a whiff of them when he was in Switzerland. Could probably get a first rounder for him. They probably don't have anymore.

This rumor was thrown around at the beginning of the season: Thomas for Channing Frye. While it would still probably be shot down, would Bulls' fans even think about it. Frye has officially shown what he can do in the L and he won't be a Blazer for more than two seasons. He may not be the low-post scorer, but he would compliment Noah quite a bit and would probably come pretty cheap.

[Leslie Forman]

Thomas for Channing Frye. While it would still probably be shot down, would Bulls' fans even think about it. Frye has officially shown what he can do in the L and he won't be a Blazer for more than two seasons. He may not be the low-post scorer, but he would compliment Noah quite a bit and would probably come pretty cheap.

If Channing Frye would cost the team Tyrus, then that's hardly cheap. All Frye has really shown is that he can become a Joe Smith-type, and as we can see, the Bulls need a bit more than a Joe Smith.

You're misinformed about Tyrus' game, which will lead you to undervalue his game and thus we won't be able to get on the same page in trade talks.

Tyrus might be marginally better than "putrid," but no, other than that, that's a pretty fair two-sentence summation of what Tyrus has done so far. He's actually even being a little generous, because if he watched more Bulls games, he'd know that Tyrus isn't a combo forward because he flat out sucks at the 3. The only position he can play is pretty much the 4 spot.

Poor coaching.

You can't use that excuse for Tyrus but then disregard it for Bogut. The only coaches he's ever played for are Terry Stotts and Larry Krystkowiak, two guys who are downright Boylan-level coaches.

I think the Bogut/Tyrus ideas are insulting to Bucks fans. I know Bogut has been underwhelming so far, but come on now. Bogut is a #1 pick who's been underwhelming and is a true center, the rarest kind of player in the league. Tyrus is a #2/4 pick who's been flat out sucky and can play no other position than the 4, which is one of the deepest spots in the league. No matter what you think about each player's talent, there is clearly a huge gap between them in market value. If there wasn't, Pau Gasol would be here right now.

I mean, it's like if someone came here and offered Channing Frye for Tyrus.

[coldfish]

People who make ton of mental errors should not play until they choose to learn.

If they can't learn, if they are good enough will would then cater around them....is Tyrus that good?

I'm not even arguing Tyrus. Ben Wallace had one of the worst executed games I have ever seen from a player in the NBA against Orlando. He was constantly out of position and breaking down the schemes on both sides of the court out of apparent laziness. Even against Miami, it was pretty poor.

Look at his defensive positioning against both Howard and Shaq. It was textbook bad post defense in that he allowed them to walk right into their preferred position. If I was going to teach a center how not to play defense, I would make them watch the Orlando game film of Wallace.

I have no issue with sitting people down for mental errors. In fact, I think it should be a top priority. Because of that, Tyrus and particularly Noah should be playing over Wallace.

[coldfish]

So many of the stats that he has put up have been caused by him leaving his area of the defense, or offense to make said play.

This can get him on sports center, or a trip to the bench. For every huge blocked shot he gives up the lane for a lay up.

I would love to break down a game with you so we can point out what each other sees....I can just see the look on my wifes face when I tell her that I am going to head to chicago to break down game film!!! Its just a 4 hour drive from Green Bay!

Mine is a 6 hour drive, but it would be fun.

I suspect that I would agree with you about Tyrus in a lot of instances. You seem to put a high value in off the ball offensive movement. Wallace actually excels at that. He is usually in the right place. Tyrus tends to wander, particularly on the weak side and screws up the spacing.

For other readers, if you want to watch what I am looking for, watch Tyrus off the ball. Any time he gets near another Bulls player without setting a pick on offense, he is probably out of position.

Tyrus has actually regressed recently in this regard, possibly because he is playing SF.

.....

I suspect we would have drastically different viewpoints on defense. IMO, the Bulls scheme is predicated on PF/C's helping whenever a player drives. The big men are supposed to leave their man and a perimeter weakside guy is supposed to have a secondary rotation to cover up the big man who was just left open.

When you see a play where a guard drives, a Bulls PF/C helps and the guard hits a big man for a layup, the error is on a Bulls weak side perimeter guy for not helping.

The Bulls have been really bad at that this year. I don't think its any surprise that Boylan specifically said to the press they were working on weak side defense in practice.

.....

Another case where we would likely disagree is evaluating on ball offense. Plays are drawn up to create certain opportunities. If Wallace or Duhon pass up a good shot opportunity, that's a mistake on their part. Even when they pass it to someone else for an assist, its still bad offense.

Missing a layup or close in shot is also a mistake, regardless if you consider it mental or not.

[tclg]

I think missing those layups/ close shots are the worst because they take easy points away from the team

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



It's little reasons like this that Coldfish is an amazing poster: he can back up his opinions with specific examples. His anecdote has tons of credibility whereas your broad assertions about what you generally see, which conflict some with my recollections of what I've seen, aren't nearly as credible.

Jeremy, obviously this is a message board, so you're welcome to respond to my comments, however read what fish wrote in response.

I am not talking about what I "generally see" as you put it. Both fish and I have long been breaking down games to detail and we both see things in different light many times, with neither of us being wrong, we just choose to put more importance to specific situations.

You don't have to agree with me, but everything I say about Tyrus is correct, this doesn't mean he can't be an effective player, as I have stated, if we want to get top production out of him we need to cater to him more. Expecting him to all of a sudden grasp our scheme is like expecting my neighbors 10 year old dog to stop peeing in his living room. Tyrus had had nearly 2 years to learn our system, and he has actually taken a step BACK this year. This is why he is not on the floor. Fish admits such.

Any time you would like to break things down further, I would be happy to. I don't want to change anyones mind, I just want to point out the details that several fans will over look because they don't break down the play far enough.

This is why I like debating with posters like Doug and Fish because they break things down as I do, and generally all 3 of us see different things. This is also the reason why most teams have so many assistant coach's.

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm not even arguing Tyrus. Ben Wallace had one of the worst executed games I have ever seen from a player in the NBA against Orlando. He was constantly out of position and breaking down the schemes on both sides of the court out of apparent laziness. Even against Miami, it was pretty poor.

Look at his defensive positioning against both Howard and Shaq. It was textbook bad post defense in that he allowed them to walk right into their preferred position. If I was going to teach a center how not to play defense, I would make them watch the Orlando game film of Wallace.

I have no issue with sitting people down for mental errors. In fact, I think it should be a top priority. Because of that, Tyrus and particularly Noah should be playing over Wallace.

You're preaching to the choir my friend. Wallace seems to be even half the player he was last year. Like players in the past that I felt just needed this or that to come around (sweets) I can't bring up what they used to do any longer. This is a what have you done for me lately world.

We all know what Wallace USED to be able to do, so to think that he is still capable is a joke.

My only thought is that they are hoping to prove to teams that he is still a 35-40 min per game player that they can sell to a contender, because I feel under the right system you could see him a bit more productive, especially with another solid post player next to him to take heat off of him and allow him to be a help defender again.

[Neusch23]

So many of the stats that he has put up have been caused by him leaving his area of the defense, or offense to make said play.

This can get him on sports center, or a trip to the bench. For every huge blocked shot he gives up the lane for a lay up.

I would love to break down a game with you so we can point out what each other sees....I can just see the look on my wifes face when I tell her that I am going to head to chicago to break down game film!!! Its just a 4 hour drive from Green Bay!

Mine is a 6 hour drive, but it would be fun.

I suspect that I would agree with you about Tyrus in a lot of instances. You seem to put a high value in off the ball offensive movement. Wallace actually excels at that. He is usually in the right place. Tyrus tends to wander, particularly on the weak side and screws up the spacing.

For other readers, if you want to watch what I am looking for, watch Tyrus off the ball. Any time he gets near another Bulls player without setting a pick on offense, he is probably out of position.

Tyrus has actually regressed recently in this regard, possibly because he is playing SF.

.....

I suspect we would have drastically different viewpoints on defense. IMO, the Bulls scheme is predicated on PF/C's helping whenever a player drives. The big men are supposed to leave their man and a perimeter weakside guy is supposed to have a secondary rotation to cover up the big man who was just left open.
When you see a play where a guard drives, a Bulls PF/C helps and the guard hits a big man for a layup, the error is on a Bulls weak side perimeter guy for not helping.

The Bulls have been really bad at that this year. I don't think its any surprise that Boylan specifically said to the press they were working on weak side defense in practice.

.....

Another case where we would likely disagree is evaluating on ball offense. Plays are drawn up to create certain opportunities. If Wallace or Duhon pass up a good shot opportunity, that's a mistake on their part. Even when they pass it to someone else for an assist, its still bad offense.

Missing a layup or close in shot is also a mistake, regardless if you consider it mental or not.

see the bolded part. I agree 100%, however, I believe each player to have a space around them that they are allowed to roam with in.

They have to still be able to help and recover. Bobby Knight beat this to death.

Help and recover still rings in my head. Each player has a space around their defender that they are supposed to cover.

If the ball enters that zone you have to stop the ball, but still be able to help cover your man.

Now, as the lane gets congested around the ball other players have to be able to step up to help the man who just took on the cutting defender. We can not surender a lay up to the player now open because of a on the ball help defender.

The Bulls just are not rotating well. Tyrus is the worst. he steps far out of his zone, and leaves the back, weak side wide open all the time.

This is the only part I disagree on on the help defense.

[tclg]

I dont think tyrus is the worst at help and recover. On many plays I see ben wallace not even attempt to help and when he does he gets out there late and often that results in an easy open look. Tyrus when he helps generally does a good job of forcing up a bad shot. I think the guards are the ones most guilty of not being able to recover properly

[JeremyB0001]

Tyrus might be marginally better than "putrid," but no, other than that, that's a pretty fair two-sentence summation of what Tyrus has done so far. He's actually even being a little generous, because if he watched more Bulls games, he'd know that Tyrus isn't a combo forward because he flat out sucks at the 3. The only position he can play is pretty much the 4 spot.

Marginally better than putrid would be something like "bad" and that would leave us without a term to describe the substantial number of NBA players who are worse than Tyrus on offense. I'd go with something like "average" or "decent." We're in agreement that Tyrus is a four and not a three/four. I guess we disagree whether that's a positive or not.

You can't use that excuse for Tyrus but then disregard it for Bogut. The only coaches he's ever played for are Terry Stotts and Larry Krystkowiak, two guys who are downright Boylan-level coaches.

Ok. I haven't discussed Bogut at all in this thread, so I don't think I've done so.

Jeremy, obviously this is a message board, so you're welcome to respond to my comments, however read what fish wrote in response.

I am not talking about what I "generally see" as you put it. Both fish and I have long been breaking down games to detail and we both see things in different light many times, with neither of us being wrong, we just choose to put more importance to specific situations.

I didn't mean it as a dig on you, just a complement for fish. Again in both of your subsequent posts, he used impressive specificity (Tyrus sometimes wanders too close to teammates away from the ball on offense, creating spacing problems) while your post was much more general (Tyrus doesn't grasp our schemes).

The two of you seem to largely see the same problems with Tyrus off the ball but disagree about defense. Also, your conclusions differ quite a bit. As far as I can tell, fish believes Tyrus needs to improve on his ability to run the offensive sets but does a lot of good things out there and should therefore be playing more minutes whereas you believe Tyrus can't and won't learn the sets (you rarely or never specify whether you're referring to offense or defense) and thus don't believe Tyrus is capable of helping the team much. Obviously, my opinion more closely resembles fish's.

[kyrv]

Jeremy, this goes back to drafting a project that the GM said before the draft would need special developing, and then complaining because he makes mistakes and is not developed.

Yes, Paxson and coaches, if he knew everything, and was developed, he wouldn't be a project.

Also coaches have not said he doesn't play because 'he makes mistakes', so to their credit they aren't pretending other players don't make mistakes. If someone is saying Tyrus doesn't play because he makes mistakes, please please be clear that's a guess/opinion, as far as I know we don't in fact know why Tyrus doesn't play.

Paxson didn't say "Tyrus makes too many mistakes", Paxson said "Tyrus should play more". Not quite the same thing.

[ATRAIN53]

i don't see a divisional trade between the Bulls and Bucks

and you can keep Bogut and Yi

but if the Bucks are shopping Redd, I'm trampling women and children to get to the front of the line.

c'mon send that 6'6" Guard down here, we'll market him and make him a a REAL NBA star.

just name your price - Deng, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah, Wallace, Hinrich...
our lottery pick next year (just think - that's 2 shots at Rose or Mayo!)