Chris Bosh or David West?

[Erebus Tunafish]

Regardless of stats, you can't really compare a team leader to a role player.

[cbosh4mvp]

The Nets never tripled teamed Bosh... They had Collins on him and would just send a weak double at him to take away his driving lanes.

With his ability to drive shut down, and his inability / unwillingness to score in the post against Collins, Bosh was reduced to even more of a jump shooter than he normally is and that is why he posted such poor playoff numbers.

Sorry I just wanted to point that out.

haha dont be a homer bro. Every time Bosh touched the ball kidd would come to try and steal it and collins and rj would be all over him. And our PG's weren't makin shots.

[niffoc4]

Another vote for Bosh.

Tsherkin, on the 'modern usage' thing... isn't English always changing? Is the English we use today the same as the English used 200 (or even 100) years ago? I think you know the answer to that. Languages are constantly changing, and accepting modern usage to a certain extent follows that.
I respect your posts, and understanding of debate concepts, but no need to go after someone for trying to get behind modern usage.

[Hairy Midget]

Saw some thing about points per shot a few weeks ago that showed Bosh as #1 in PPS for power forwards. It said that PFs have the lowest PPS of any other position, but it was still better than West who was listed in the bottom 10 of the top 50 scorers in the league in PPS.

[tsherkin]

Another vote for Bosh.

Tsherkin, on the 'modern usage' thing... isn't English always changing? Is the English we use today the same as the English used 200 (or even 100) years ago? I think you know the answer to that. Languages are constantly changing, and accepting modern usage to a certain extent follows that.
I respect your posts, and understanding of debate concepts, but no need to go after someone for trying to get behind modern usage.

Yes there is; that particular attempt was merely foolish. There are indeed legitimate instances where a word has changed. 'Gay' has been adopted by the homosexual community, for example, and is almost never used except in literature in its original meaning of happiness and joy, etc.

But in this particular situation, it is blatantly incorrect because it is a conflict and a well-known fallacious usage of a phrase already in existence and used in another context.

English is the worst language in all the world; it is overly dependant on homonyms, is stricken with contradictions and exceptions and is essentially the worst-constructed language in the history of mankind. Evolution is one thing; using a language's own inadequacies to justify them is in fact an example of begging the question, the irony of which is not lost on me.

Now, you want to talk 'modern usage?'

The modern usage of the word 'beg' is an entreaty, asking someone for something. In fact, in its most common context, it is to beseech, to throw yourself at the mercy of your listener in the hope that they will acquiesce to your request.

Of whom would a person 'beg the question' if, through the direction of the conversation, a given inquiry arises?

It makes no sense, it is wrong and it conflicts with an existing phrase that REMAINS in common usage. It is not overwriting an archaic phrase, it's a direct contravention of a phrase that is a part of modern usage.

I appreciate your point; it is a legitimate argument in many cases. The more commonly accepted usage of profanity, the general movement towards informal language, more contradictions, weaker grammatical structure (e.g. allowing sentences to end with prepositions) and so forth. These are all examples of the language 'evolving.'

In the most basic sense, this is actually a degeneration of the language but it is a truth about the direction in which Western culture has moved, reflecting our shifting and increasingly liberal values. That is all well and fine but this particular example is not such an example, it is simply incorrect.

[-NSX-]

^^ nice job, i actually understood that. wow, i felt like i was in 1st year linguistics class all over again...oh the hoorrid memories,

too keeep in topic Bosh>West

west doesnt have any outstanding skill that bosh doesnt have...

[tsherkin]

^^ nice job, i actually understood that. wow, i felt like i was in 1st year linguistics class all over again...oh the hoorrid memories,

I'm glad that helps.

west doesnt have any outstanding skill that bosh doesnt have...

The main difference really comes down to Bosh's ability to get to the line, since they are quite similar otherwise.

[PharoaheMonch]

Could David West even dream of playing the way Bosh has the last two weeks? Hell no. This is Bosh healthy, and with all pistons firing.

One of these seasons he's going to average 29 PPG for the entire year, book it.

[yunggunz]

Could David West even dream of playing the way Bosh has the last two weeks? Hell no. This is Bosh healthy, and with all pistons firing.

West played about as well in April last year, so yes, I would say that West can do a lot more than "dream" about playing like that.

[2poor]

Could David West even dream of playing the way Bosh has the last two weeks? Hell no. This is Bosh healthy, and with all pistons firing.

One of these seasons he's going to average 29 PPG for the entire year, book it.

Bosh last 10 games:

25ppg (52% fg), 9.2rpg, 2.6apg, 1.4bpg, 1.2spg

(team record: 6-4)

West last 10 games:

22.5ppg (55% fg), 10.1rpg, 2.9apg, 1.2bpg, 0.5spg

(team record: 8-2)

West, a forward, has 17 double-doubles and is averaging 19.3 points and 9.5 rebounds. He has scored 20 or more points in eight of the past 11 games.

At 26-12, the Hornets have the best record in franchise history after 38 games. They have won 11 of the past 13 games, which includes seven in a row on the road.

What were you saying again? You don't realize that good players exist outside of Toronto?

[ITK9]

bosh is better but imo it's much closer than the people think.

[brown_kids]

Bosh is better, West is still a beast in his own respect

[EdMar_Davis]

Bosh without a question.West is good, but Bosh is just on another level.

[PharoaheMonch]

Bosh in Jan (remember, he only started playing healthy this month)

PPG- 27.4
RPG- 9.6
APG- 2.1
SPG- 1.0
BPG- 1.3
FT%- 82.0
FG%- 58.2

Close thread. Bosh is younger as well, Bosh at his best is an MVP candidate, West at his best is an all star.

[yunggunz]

Bosh in Jan (remember, he only started playing healthy this month)

PPG- 27.4
RPG- 9.6
APG- 2.1
SPG- 1.0
BPG- 1.3
FT%- 82.0
FG%- 58.2

Close thread. Bosh is younger as well, Bosh at his best is an MVP candidate, West at his best is an all star.

A) As I said, West put up similar stats in April.

B)You cant say "close thread" based on a 7 game sample.

C)Bosh is no where near an MVP candidate at his best. Especially when his team in 4-3 at his best.

[Kosta]

-= original quote snipped =-



A) As I said, West put up similar stats in April.

B)You cant say "close thread" based on a 7 game sample.

C)Bosh is no where near an MVP candidate at his best. Especially when his team in 4-3 at his best.

I guess whoever did the votes for last year's MVP thought more of Bosh than you do my brother, because he finished 7th overall. West is a borderline all-star guy, probably will get in once or twice in the future, Bosh is a perennial all-star, the leader of our team, the franchise player. He's to us what Chris Paul is to New Orleans. Bud, Bosh at his best is definitely a MVP candidate, maybe not top 2-3, he's no Duncan, Kobe or LeBron, but he's in the group right below them and that group is way ahead of David West's group.

And it is close thread, I don't think there's any debate that Chris Bosh is better, I think the only question was how far off West is and in some people's minds, he isn't that far off, which is reasonable. But it's evidently and painfully clear to anyone who has watched these two guys play over the last 5 seasons that Bosh is in another league.

David West doesn't do ANY ONE thing better than Bosh. Not one. While Chris is the better scorer, more of an inside presence, better outside shooter, better rebounder, and a legit number one option.

[NO-KG-AI]

He's a better defender than Bosh. I'd say his inside game is better too, though he doesn't go to it as much as he should.

[Kosta]

Oh, and how could I forget tsherkin's main argument, Chris is immensely better at getting to the line, which makes him so damn valuable. He can get to the line 15+ times on any given night, his ability to draw fouls is such a weapon to his game.

[Kosta]

He's a better defender than Bosh. I'd say his inside game is better too, though he doesn't go to it as much as he should.

Nah, watching Bosh this season, he's has definitely improved getting inside. There will be games where he settles, but this season it's far less often than season's prior. His defense has improved as well, his game has really evolved, he continues to improve in every area and he's only 23! West is 27, right?

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't care how old he is, he's certainly not a better defender, West is a much better man defender, and they are about the same as help defenders.

West can establish post position easier, and has a more refined game with his back to the basket.

This is Bosh easily, but to say West doesn't do one thing better is just false, the thing that makes it so easily Bosh is his ability to face up and drive and draw fouls.

Edit: and lets not pretend west hasn't been constantly improving, his scoring and rebounding numbers are increasing every year, and he's gone from a non-existent shot-blocker, to a decent one.