Sam Smith: Bulls Future Not So Dim...

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Look...I'm not going to go line by line and point out the dozens of opinion. Especially since you don't seem to grok fact vs. opinion.

I don't know what the hell grok is, but I can assure you that I have no problem distinguishing fact from opinion

For example, it's far from a fact that Chris Paul is responsible from Chandler going from 5&9 in his last year here to 12 & 12 this year.

Do you disagree that having a good PG is more important to a big man than any other position? How can you not see the correlation between Chandlers increased offensive efficiency, and his playing with the best PG in the game?

And it's downright laughable to say that Wallace got paid $60M with the plan that 1 of 4 contract years is for tudoring (how is that going?) and 1 of the 4 years is for an expiring contract (how well did that work with Tim Thomas?).

Whats laughable about expecting 2 great years, 1 good year, and then one "trade" year out of a 32 year old C who was signed to a decreasing contract. Nearly everyone on this site agreed that you weren't going to get 4 years out of Ben - why would Paxson think differently? Pax did go out and draft 2 Centers this year.

[kyrv]

-= original quote snipped =-



Look...I'm not going to go line by line and point out the dozens of opinion. Especially since you don't seem to grok fact vs. opinion.

For example, it's far from a fact that Chris Paul is responsible from Chandler going from 5&9 in his last year here to 12 & 12 this year.

And it's downright laughable to say that Wallace got paid $60M with the plan that 1 of 4 contract years is for tudoring (how is that going?) and 1 of the 4 years is for an expiring contract (how well did that work with Tim Thomas?).

First, Chandler himself felt he would not be doing this well in Chicago.

As far as Wallace, I can't speak for the Bulls but I posted I wanted two good years, one not so good year, and one year as expiring. Is that pricey? Yes, most years getting the top FA is going to be pricey.

It was a *risk*, for those who want Paxson to take risks.

Basically he's gotten worse just one year ahead of what I had guessed, which is not really the problem. The problem is they keep starting him and playing him as if he was earning his contract. That, to be fair, isn't on Ben.


P.S. Edit - I see Magilla posted above me the same thoughts I had.

[Johnston797]

How can you not see the correlation between Chandlers increased offensive efficiency, and his playing with the best PG in the game?

ok - correlation is almost fact based, but you didn't address the whole quote. Sam says playing with a great point guard makes all the difference for big men. That's OPINION.

Who is Dwight Howard's great point? Akeem? Ect.

Whats laughable about expecting 2 great years, 1 good year, and then one "trade" year out of a 32 year old C who was signed to a decreasing contract. Nearly everyone on this site agreed that you weren't going to get 4 years out of Ben - why would Paxson think differently? Pax did go out and draft 2 Centers this year.

"Great" years? Sam didn't say that. Sam says two "good" years, one year of tudoring, and one year of trade bait. Why is that revisionist expectations? Because at the time, I posted repeatedly that Chandler would clearly be better than Wallace 2 years after the trade and caught tons of flack. Duh....Rodman was 36 in the last year of the threepeat and Wallace's contract will be expired by then.

[kyrv]

-= original quote snipped =-



"Great" years? Sam didn't say that. Sam says two "good" years, one year of tudoring, and one year of trade bait. Why is that revisionist expectations? Because at the time, I posted repeatedly that Chandler would clearly be better than Wallace 2 years after the trade and caught tons of flack. Duh....Rodman was 36 in the last year of the threepeat and Wallace's contract will be expired by then.

With him not playing under Skiles, sure.

I was also one of the few who wanted to keep Chandler.

Players that do pretty poorly on one side of the ball though, tend to get trashed here.

[85Bears]

I was for the Chandler Littlehands trade also. I was very disappointed we didnt move PJ at the deadline. That has been the biggest mistake in Pax's plan I think. Most of the other moves seemed logical. Although, I was not much of a fan of drafting a PG a year after Kirk was picked, seemed odd. Iggy would have fit alot better, but Deng may not have been there at 7. Iggy and Deng would have been a coup.

[dougthonus]

Doug, what guarantee can you give that Aldridge and Brewer wouldn't have been stapled to the bench in the manner Thabo and Tyrus have been?

You're right there is no guarantee. Of course, since this is an argument about Paxson, if we had good players and they couldn't get off the bench then it's an indictment of our coaching staff which is also of Paxson's choosing.

If Tyrus and Thabo eventually break out and look like fine NBA players then we can blame much of this on Skiles, but Paxson will still get some blame for not forcing Skiles' (and now Boylan's) hand on the issue.

[dougthonus]

So say they drafted LA & Brewer. Brewer starts off as 4th guard no matter what and gets no defined role besides the mop up guard. This team has shown an incredible amount of trust in Duhon for no real reason.

Maybe that would happen, or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe Tyrus and Thabo just aren't that good, or perhaps, Aldridge and Brewer would just be less mistake prone and thus get more opportunities since the Bulls coaching staff pulls you based on mistakes. Or maybe Tyrus and Thabo will be good, and our coaching staff is holding them back in which case Paxson is still at fault for not forcing the hand of the coaching staff.

LA would have been in the same spot as Tyrus and wouldn't have played until Nocioni went down. Then he'd be the starter for a few games before proven vet Joe took the starting gig away from him. Then he too would battle with Noah for backup minutes and lose because Noah is freaking awesome. Aldridge was afforded the chance to play 25-30 mpg reguardless of how well he played and Portland is benefiting from this right now.

I don't know if we'd have signed Joe Smith if we had LaMarcus Aldridge given that Aldridge fills the same role as Smith.

[kyrv]

Doug you have again described the problem beautifully, you draft a project and rather than develop him, sit him because of mistakes.

I believe that Aldridge and Brewer make mistakes also, and I believe Skiles and Boylan prefer vets, regardless of the mistake count.

I think it's as likely as not likely that the Bulls would have still signed Joe Smith if they had Aldridge. He wasn't *great* as a rookie on Portland and that was with a lot of playing time to develop.

I don't really like the time machine game, but, I think any other team would have drafted Tyrus to develop him, or, not draft him.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

ok - correlation is almost fact based, but you didn't address the whole quote. Sam says playing with a great point guard makes all the difference for big men. That's OPINION.

Who is Dwight Howard's great point? Akeem? Ect.

Good idea, grab two transcedent big men who's greatness can overcome any shortcomings their team might have.

Hakeem is quite possibly the greatest big man to ever play the 5, while Howard will be a 20 & 12 guy for the next 12 years. Hakeem had some of the greatest post moves in the history of basketball while Howards strength and speed is unparalleled since the "young Shaq" days. Both of these had/have amazing skills that allow them to get the ball in a bad position (as Hakeem routinely did) and still score. Players like Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, and now Howard are the exception to the rule.

FWIW - Hakeems situation further proves his greatness. Houstons offense consisted of throwing the ball to Hakeem, all the guards stand outside the 3pt line while the Dream makes some of the most amazing post moves you have ever seen, then wait for Hakeem to either score or pass the ball out for an open three.


You are absolutely oblivious if you don't think a good PG is the most important thing you can give a big man. Playing with a good PG makes the difference for almost anyone - but more so than anyone else for the 5. They are more dependent than any position on receiving the ball at a paticular time and place.

[dougthonus]

I believe that Aldridge and Brewer make mistakes also, and I believe Skiles and Boylan prefer vets, regardless of the mistake count.

Everyone makes mistakes, but it's not like Skiles never played rookies lest we forget the 04/05 season.

I think it's fair to say that it's likely that Aldridge and Brewer were both better suited to make an easier jump to the NBA than Tyrus and Thabo. The jump from a low level european league to the NBA is bigger than the NCAA to NBA, and Tyrus is obviously the more raw of the two between him and Aldridge.

I agree with you that I'm not a fan of the time machine, but that's what this thread is. It's Sam Smith stepping into the time machine and saying none of these things were predictable at the time.

I don't think that's accurate. I think several of these things were quite predictable at the time, and not just by fringe types of people, but in fact, by the majority of Bulls fans. I think more people here wanted Aldridge than Tyrus and more wanted Brewer than Thabo. I think definitely more people wanted Tyson Chandler than PJ Brown.

I'm not suggesting that these mistakes make Paxson a complete failure as a GM, but they were hardly the result of the crazy unpredictable NBA.

[85Bears]

If we had kept Chandler while Signing Wallace, would we have been able to offer Deng and Gordon 50Million dollar deals without going over the cap?

[Muzzleshot]

"It's much easier to pick the winners when the race is over."


I'm not sure I'm understanding his point. How else to you judge a GM's job if you don't look at his moves in hindsight?
In my job I get judged on the end result, not my good intentions or how good the idea seemed when I started. The NBA is a end results business.

Anyway, there were many red flags pertaining to BW when he was closing out his career with the Pistons. 3 to 4 years of decling numbers with Detroit and being 32 when the 06-07 season started. The fact that he didn't really get along with any of his coaches in Detroit including not wanting to re-enter the game against Orlando. There was a buyer beware sticker on BW that should have been pretty easy to see.

[Johnston797]

You are absolutely oblivious if you don't think a good PG is the most important thing you can give a big man. .

And you are clearly oblivious if you don't realize that this is your opinion and not a fact. My opinion is that individual skill is the most important thing for a big man.