Hedo's Role

[Typhoon20]

Hedo may not be one of the leagues best clutch players but he's our best clutch player. There is a reason he's being called Mr. 4th quarter. Just cause he's had 2-3 bad games all of a sudden he's not clutch. Look at all the previous games, chicago game, miami game and so on. It's also something that popovich used him for, he hit that game-winner, can't remember which game though. So he is pretty clutch. You have to accept that there are games where the clutch isn't going to be there, even the best clutch players have missed a lot of clutch plays, chocked at the end of the game.

I do not want the ball in Dwight's hands all the time, neither do I want the ball in Nelson's hands. Dwight isn't versatile yet, he doesn't have a jumper, doesn't hit his FT's well enough, doesn't have court vision and is basically limited in his options. Nelson would be a close 2nd, he does well in clutch situations, just not THAT well. But again he looks for his shot instead of attacking the rim or passing it to the open guy. Shard, well, he's not really clutch. And don't even bring up our loser trio of bogans, dooling & arroyo.

That said, I think we need give the ball to Hedo mainly, let him create from the pick&roll and have Jameer and Shard out there for the outside threat (jameer is good at making that shot) and let Hedo go inside, if he gets the triple threat pass it outside to Shard, Meer let them make the shot, or if there's room attack the rim get to the line, or pass it to Dwight let him do his thing. We SHOULDN'T involve arroyo, dooling or bogans late in the 4th. Just put either Evans in there or JJ. Sure they can miss 1 or 2 but I'm sure that play will bring more succes than it will dissapoint.

I wish you would have brought this up a week or 2 ago,
90% of us would have disagreed with you. Now that he's had 2-3 bad games...90% would agree with you.

[grayson11]

knappy, I agree with you in the sense that Hedo is best suited as a role player, however, I also disagree with the idea of Hedo deferring to Jameer in the clutch. I just don't see it happening. All around, Hedo has the best offensive game on this team. Until we have a better suited player for this role, I'd prefer we let Hedo run the offense. Although, his shooting game can be very streaky, I just value the rest of his game too much to have him come off the bench, and I'm pretty sure this is how SVG feels about the whole 'Lewis starting at the 3' situation. But then, this just brings us back to the 'We need a PF' situation.

[TooNice00]

i don't think the offense should through howard all the time but i think he should a lot more oppotunities than he does now. nobody is even close to being as efficient as dwight at scoring on our team. people talk about turnovers but the majority of dwights turnovers are not from bad passes but from offensive fouls and 3 second calls. i think using cutters (like evans) would allow the offense to run through howard more. and its not like hedo doesn't have his turnover problems. his are probably worse because most of his are from bad passes that lead to fast breaks.

[Bensational]

Hedo is the primary guy who looks to get the ball into Dwight on every play. regardless of whether or not he sends it in, you'll always see Hedo look to send him the ball. Jameer either looks to pass early around the perimeter or he looks for his shot.

i don't agree at all that Hedo should have a reduced role. if we had better players than him then sure, but we don't. Jameer is a scorer. Lewis is a scorer. our SG position is a gamble. Dwight should be our focus.

in the clutch, theoretically we should have 3 good options - Hedo, Lewis and Jameer. i'm not opposed to seeing any of those guys take the shot, i'd just prefer to see the hot hand of the night take it.

right now i'd say that the biggest reason we've been winning, and the reason we were so hot at the start of the season is because of Hedo's performance. Knappy mentioned our hot finish at the end of the 05-06 season, and if you think back to our finish last season you'll find that Hedo has strong performances in these stretches too. Hedo is a major catalyst for this team winning.

theoretically we should be able to run an offense through both Jameer and Hedo, utulising both their different play-making abilities and scoring threats. like Knappy said, there just needs to be a balance. only problem is that Jameer seems to have caught Hedo's inconsistency bug from last season.

[knappy]

-= original quote snipped =-



Reportedly he wanted the max. Why would he take 2/3 of that?

Besides, if you lower the price to that level, that takes him out of Base Year issues and then many more teams would be have a good chance of getting him.

If you read the news, which I was doing daily at that time - his agent was looking for a contract in the range of $75m to $80m. Then supposedly the Knicks showed interest and Otis panicked and paid him $118m. Maybe he would have had to pay him that much, but originally he was wanting $75 to $80m - Lewis isn't going to turn down the extra money if he can get it.

It may have been mandatory with the Knicks expressing interest, but I don't know if we would have had to pay as much if Darko had been signed. I wanted Darko signed the year before and it probably could have been done for a similar amount to what he is being paid per year now.

I know people think Darko was a bust, but he played well with Dwight and with this team and he probably still would be playing well with us. He isn't doing well in Memphis - I'd love to get him back with that current contract.

If Darko had been signed it would of forced us to move Garrity, Dooling or Arroyo - Dooling I don't mind - many don't like him, but I have no problem moving one of those guys.

[knappy]

Hedo may not be one of the leagues best clutch players but he's our best clutch player. There is a reason he's being called Mr. 4th quarter. Just cause he's had 2-3 bad games all of a sudden he's not clutch. Look at all the previous games, chicago game, miami game and so on. It's also something that popovich used him for, he hit that game-winner, can't remember which game though. So he is pretty clutch. You have to accept that there are games where the clutch isn't going to be there, even the best clutch players have missed a lot of clutch plays, chocked at the end of the game.

I do not want the ball in Dwight's hands all the time, neither do I want the ball in Nelson's hands. Dwight isn't versatile yet, he doesn't have a jumper, doesn't hit his FT's well enough, doesn't have court vision and is basically limited in his options. Nelson would be a close 2nd, he does well in clutch situations, just not THAT well. But again he looks for his shot instead of attacking the rim or passing it to the open guy. Shard, well, he's not really clutch. And don't even bring up our loser trio of bogans, dooling & arroyo.

That said, I think we need give the ball to Hedo mainly, let him create from the pick&roll and have Jameer and Shard out there for the outside threat (jameer is good at making that shot) and let Hedo go inside, if he gets the triple threat pass it outside to Shard, Meer let them make the shot, or if there's room attack the rim get to the line, or pass it to Dwight let him do his thing. We SHOULDN'T involve arroyo, dooling or bogans late in the 4th. Just put either Evans in there or JJ. Sure they can miss 1 or 2 but I'm sure that play will bring more succes than it will dissapoint.

I wish you would have brought this up a week or 2 ago,
90% of us would have disagreed with you. Now that he's had 2-3 bad games...90% would agree with you.

Typhoon I am not basing this on recent play - I am basing it more on the 05 - 06 season where we had a whole season and Hedo was trying to be the go to guy the after the first 20 games or so - he tried to be the go to guy for about 30 games - the last 22 games he became a piece of the offense and deferred to Jameer and we played well with Jameer being the guy with the ball at the end - taking the shot or passing the ball. Jameer did average around 22 pts. and shot 53% from the field and the team was on fire - Jameer had no one to defer to and he played aggressive - the team chemistry was great. Hedo was putting up very good numbers those last 22 games, but he played as a role player - a part of the offense - he didn't try to run the show. He let the game come to him instead of trying to force the game. Hedo can create, but he is not a big time clutch player. I think Nelson is our best option if he can get his head out of his ass. I would also try Lewis before Hedo - not that Hedo can't take some game winning shots - just stop depending on him so much - stop running the offense through Hedo so much - not completely, but cut back and get Hedo to let the game come to him and not force things so much is what I am saying.

[knappy]

knappy, I agree with you in the sense that Hedo is best suited as a role player, however, I also disagree with the idea of Hedo deferring to Jameer in the clutch. I just don't see it happening. All around, Hedo has the best offensive game on this team. Until we have a better suited player for this role, I'd prefer we let Hedo run the offense. Although, his shooting game can be very streaky, I just value the rest of his game too much to have him come off the bench, and I'm pretty sure this is how SVG feels about the whole 'Lewis starting at the 3' situation. But then, this just brings us back to the 'We need a PF' situation.

I don't think Hedo has to come off the bench or start - either way is cool. I just don't like him being such a big part of the offense with him creating all the time - I want him to create, but not as often as he is and I want Jameer to do more of the creating and I want Jameer looking to put up 20 pts. a night - we play better when he does and Hedo scores nearly the same - he shoots a better percentage and I think we see more wins.

I agree - that right now no one is stepping up - Lewis is not stepping up and Jameer is in a slump. I would like to see the Magic run more offense through Jameer and ask Jameer to score more and also run more through Lewis. Howard and Hedo can get their touches, but Nelson and Lewis need to pick it up.

I don't think our relying on Hedo will translate into wins. Do we need Hedo to show up yes, but we don't want him taking on a Lebron James role - he can't do what Lebron can do - let him take on a Scottie Pippen role or a key role, but not the main role - he is better when he doesn't try to be Mr. clutch. His numbers don't tale off that much, but keep the ball in Jameer's hands and ask Jameer to score more and shoot more - become more of a threat and it opens up opportunities for others - right now Jameer's passive passing game isn't helping. He will be able to get more assists if he scores more.

[knappy]

Hedo is the primary guy who looks to get the ball into Dwight on every play. regardless of whether or not he sends it in, you'll always see Hedo look to send him the ball. Jameer either looks to pass early around the perimeter or he looks for his shot.

i don't agree at all that Hedo should have a reduced role. if we had better players than him then sure, but we don't. Jameer is a scorer. Lewis is a scorer. our SG position is a gamble. Dwight should be our focus.

in the clutch, theoretically we should have 3 good options - Hedo, Lewis and Jameer. i'm not opposed to seeing any of those guys take the shot, i'd just prefer to see the hot hand of the night take it.

right now i'd say that the biggest reason we've been winning, and the reason we were so hot at the start of the season is because of Hedo's performance. Knappy mentioned our hot finish at the end of the 05-06 season, and if you think back to our finish last season you'll find that Hedo has strong performances in these stretches too. Hedo is a major catalyst for this team winning.

theoretically we should be able to run an offense through both Jameer and Hedo, utulising both their different play-making abilities and scoring threats. like Knappy said, there just needs to be a balance. only problem is that Jameer seems to have caught Hedo's inconsistency bug from last season.

Good comments - Jameer needs to step up to allow Hedo to go back into the role that fits him best. When I ask that less offense run through Hedo like MM was saying - I don't want him to go away - I expect very good numbers out of Hedo - simliar to what he is doing now - just getting his numbers differently.

I don't like jameer immediately passing off when he comes down the court - many times he doesn't see the ball again - I would like jameer to initiate more and we need to tell Jameer and Hedo that we would like Jameer to initiate things more on offense and to put the ball in Jameer's hands more. I want Hedo doing that pass into Dwight - that all should continue, but Hedo is not the best option to run our offense through him - sometimes yes, but to the extent that it is being done - is too much.

You mentioned that Hedo was very productive during the end of 05 - 06 and he was he was great - he played a role during that time - Jameer was the go to guy and the offense went through Jameer and Jameer was scoring - Hedo's numbers were similar to what he is doing now, but he was playing different - he got easier shots with the offense going through Nelson more. His shooting percentage was higher.

I still want to see at least 16 a night from Hedo and sometimes over 20, but when he lets the game come to him he can do that on less shots and he plays better all the way around.

The problem is that Nelson went AWOL on us - I think the kid can play, but he is not mentally with us right now. I don't know how long it will take or maybe I have over-rated the guy, but I would ask him to step it up and I would ask Hedo to defer more to Nelson not entirely, but lets see what happens if more of the offense is run through Nelson and Lewis.

[Bensational]

^^ it's been quite a while since we saw a consistent level of performance from Nelson like he had back at the end of 05-06. i'm a fan of his and all, but perhaps that stretch was the out of the ordinary play, and his poor play as of late is just his standard level of play?

i'm hopin he can pull it together though. the kid seems like a winner to me. he's got issues and is a liability, but so long as he can help our team get more balls in the basket than the other, then he'll be alright.

there's a ways to go until he reaches that level though.

[grayson11]

That's exactly my point. When Jameer just hasn't been bringin' it (whether it be mental or otherwise) there's no reason to force it.

You can always make bold statements that are associated with the win but they might not be the major factor in the result. Okay, so let's say if Dwight has more than 5 blocks in a game, we win. He can't just abandon all responsibilities and focus on blocking shots for the win just because their coincidentally associated. Jameer having a hot streak for a couple weeks 2 seasons prior doesn't show that he's got it. That just shows how inconsistent he can be if the awesome play only last that long.

I mean, anybody can find fragments of seasons where we were winning and a certain player excelled. That doesn't mean they were the reason for the wins.

Don't get me wrong I love Jameer too. I get a little overly excited when he gets hot too, but expecting a 5'10 shoot-first guard to bring the this team to the next level is kinda pushing it. He's slower than a good amount of guards and a good amount are also stronger than him too.

[knappy]

That's exactly my point. When Jameer just hasn't been bringin' it (whether it be mental or otherwise) there's no reason to force it.

You can always make bold statements that are associated with the win but they might not be the major factor in the result. Okay, so let's say if Dwight has more than 5 blocks in a game, we win. He can't just abandon all responsibilities and focus on blocking shots for the win just because their coincidentally associated. Jameer having a hot streak for a couple weeks 2 seasons prior doesn't show that he's got it. That just shows how inconsistent he can be if the awesome play only last that long.

I mean, anybody can find fragments of seasons where we were winning and a certain player excelled. That doesn't mean they were the reason for the wins.

Don't get me wrong I love Jameer too. I get a little overly excited when he gets hot too, but expecting a 5'10 shoot-first guard to bring the this team to the next level is kinda pushing it. He's slower than a good amount of guards and a good amount are also stronger than him too.

It was more than 2 weeks that Jameer got hot - it was 22 games - so a little more than a month. Prior to that he was playing ok, but he was deferring to Grant Hill and Brian Hill and was not playing his game and he wasn't playing aggressive. He had a decent season, but he was phenomenal down the stretch - the lastt 22 games - averaging 22 pts. per game, shooting 53% and the team was on fire winning 16 of those games and many of those against contenders needing wins (San Antonio, Dallas, etc.)

Now it is up to Jameer to get out of his hole. SVG and Otis are not telling him to defer to anyone. Otis has made it clear and Jameer understands that he is a score - shoot first point guard - that can work fine if the guy is good - others do it like Parker with San Antonio - that works well with a presence like Duncan or Dwight. No one is holding Jameer back but Jameer. If he wants to be an ineffective player by passing as soon as he crosses the mid-court line then that doesn't work.

Jameer needs to demand the ball more and start scoring - he needs to lead this team - he is being way too passive. He can pass a lot, but he has got to be way more aggressive on his scoring and he needs to increase the minutes where the ball is in his hands - stop looking to pass so quickly when it is no help pass - and look to get the ball back.

I don't t know exactly what they need to do, but Hedo needs to be more of a role player - he can put up 18 pts. a night as a role player - so it is an impactful role player that is very active, but stop running the offense so much through Hedo - cut it in half, but find him for shots. It is hard to explain, but Hedo was doing it the end of 05 - 06 - really just not forcing everything and let Jameer create more - don't take it upon himself to create all the time - call Nelson out to do something.

All the players should call Nelson out and tell him to get it together. He was dedicating this season to his Dad - time to play well. I lost my Mom around the same time - a couple months earlier so hopefully, Jameer will get right again soon - get past the grieving, but it takes time.

Anyway, we are gonna need Jameer to step up - the good thing is that we have SVG and not BHill so there is a chance Jameer will step up.

[Typhoon20]

Still think he's a role player ?

Barely clutch my @ss.

[eyedoc]

Still think he's a role player ?

Barely clutch my @ss.

100% agree.

There are some guys in this board whose only ideas are to trade Hedo whatever he does. They are blind or they have got a personel problem with Hedo.

Hedo gives the best answer to them. His success covers their primitive ideas.

See you in ASG Hedo.....

[Bensational]

[quote="knappy"][/quote]

dude, i think you're counting waaaay too much on Jameer to step up. how long has it been since he played at that level? and if he returns to it, how long can he keep it up for?

Hedo's the one who's making this team work right now. why take that away from him?? especially for a risk like Jameer?

maybe once Jameer steps up (if he's hot, he'll get the ball) then there will be a natural transition. but he hasn't, there hasn't, and until he does, there won't.

[cappadoball]

Hedo=Wins.
Hedo=All Star.

[drsd]

Well, an ace game from Turkoglu to close out a trick game. Seriously, if Turkoglu wasn't so ace on all the pick and rolls, do the Magic crush Memphis? Probably get the win anyhow, but not a crushing victory.

Huge effort by Hedo last night.

[parso15]

OK I understand the give more touches to Dwight. That makes sense!

I also get the argument that Lewis should be involved more. He is getting paid the bucks. OK here too!

However to state that you want to give the ball to a shoot first (assit when you must) point guard, who is inconsistent like hell, while taking the ball from your only versatile guy is beyond me. If Hedo would be a player like Stojakovic who only shoots I would get that too but he is probably the only player who always looks for his teammates especially Dwight. Do I really need to explain why is is absurd???

I really think that this kind of lack of knowledge about the fundamentals of basketball is the reason why NBA allstars get beaten by much inferior teams in the World Championships. This misguided expectation from the fans is the main reason if you ask me.