Bucks Fan: Question about Thabo/Thomas availability

[Leslie Forman]

Marginally better than putrid would be something like "bad" and that would leave us without a term to describe the substantial number of NBA players who are worse than Tyrus on offense.

How about, um, putrid.

And I really don't know how you could possibly believe Tyrus is average/decent on offense. If Tyrus is "decent," then Noah and his 7% better TS% must be even better than that, and then Joe Smith must be damn good.

Jeremy, this goes back to drafting a project that the GM said before the draft would need special developing, and then complaining because he makes mistakes and is not developed.

Paxson definitely has a lot of buyer's remorse on some of his purchases. I still remember that quip he made about Ben Gordon not being "ideal." That's as close to an admission from a GM that he'd like a do-over as you'll hear.

He's like a guy who just bought a Corvette and is now pissed that he can't fit his groceries.

[Neusch23]

-= original quote snipped =-



I didn't mean it as a dig on you, just a complement for fish. Again in both of your subsequent posts, he used impressive specificity (Tyrus sometimes wanders too close to teammates away from the ball on offense, creating spacing problems) while your post was much more general (Tyrus doesn't grasp our schemes).

The two of you seem to largely see the same problems with Tyrus off the ball but disagree about defense. Also, your conclusions differ quite a bit. As far as I can tell, fish believes Tyrus needs to improve on his ability to run the offensive sets but does a lot of good things out there and should therefore be playing more minutes whereas you believe Tyrus can't and won't learn the sets (you rarely or never specify whether you're referring to offense or defense) and thus don't believe Tyrus is capable of helping the team much. Obviously, my opinion more closely resembles fish's.

If you want specifics watch tyrus more closely, and I am stating things in general.

If you look at my post history on Tyrus I have stated that he has the most upside of any player on the team, and that he could be a very, very good player if given the time.

Where some posters disagree with me is on how he should get there. I am one that does not agree with entitlement minutes unless you're not playing to win.

Right now, I believe we are playing to win (I don't agree, but thats what we are doing).

I believe that they are taking Tyrus old school in that he is going to earn his time by proving he is learning from their coaching.

I really don't believe that they are letting him go through the motions in practice. I believe that they spend more time with Tyrus than with any other player. They know what they could have.

For some reason Tyrus hasn't been able to pick up how we play BOTH offense and Defense! He is much worse on offense...the man has no clue out there where he should be, and generally is plugging up our spaceing by wandering around looking for a pick to set.

I believe that the team is very, very frustrated with his lack of a grasp of what we are trying to do, and thus is sitting him until he figures it out.

I believe we would let him play through mistakes IF he at least knew what he was doing out there, much like Durrant is allowed to do. He is in the right place at the right time, so a missed pick, or a bad read here and there isn't bad. Doing it all the time, that is a different story. Now this doesn't mean I would sit KD, they are playing to develop him, not to win games, that is the difference between the sonics and the bulls.

Tyrus won't get burn until we throw in the towel, and if he played 30 min a night, with the mistakes he makes to our system we wouldn't win 20 games in the season...he is that bad. He kills the productivity of the other 4 guys on the floor even though he may get a block or a sports center dunk. His stats are worth their weight in paper right now because of the havoc he does to our offensive system.

Until we cater down to him a bit, or until we add a point guard with Chris Paul type skills, I don't see how he will ever crack our rotation....at least not unless he starts figureing things out.

[DuckIII]

but if the Bucks are shopping Redd, I'm trampling women and children to get to the front of the line.

c'mon send that 6'6" Guard down here, we'll market him and make him a a REAL NBA star.

just name your price - Deng, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah, Wallace, Hinrich...
our lottery pick next year (just think - that's 2 shots at Rose or Mayo!)

**** that. There is a reason Bucks fans don't give a crap if this guy is traded. He's a one dimensional player on a max contract.

I bet Knicks fans wish they would have paid more attention to Bulls' fans complaints about Eddy Curry back in the day. If we give up meaningful value for Redd, we'll be having the same regret-filled, self-kicking party they are having.

[Simulack]

i don't see a divisional trade between the Bulls and Bucks

and you can keep Bogut and Yi

but if the Bucks are shopping Redd, I'm trampling women and children to get to the front of the line.

c'mon send that 6'6" Guard down here, we'll market him and make him a a REAL NBA star.

just name your price - Deng, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah, Wallace, Hinrich...
our lottery pick next year (just think - that's 2 shots at Rose or Mayo!)

I don't see the divisional argument as a very strong one. We made a major trade with Toronto (TJ for CV) a year and a half ago and we play them 3 times a year. We only play the Bulls one more game a season. Would our teams really not do a trade based on 1 extra game a year? I never liked that reasoning.

I've thought the Bulls would be a decent trading partner with the Bucks for Redd all year. Only questions are if he is redundant with Gordon and if they would want his contract.

[Neusch23]

i don't see a divisional trade between the Bulls and Bucks

and you can keep Bogut and Yi

but if the Bucks are shopping Redd, I'm trampling women and children to get to the front of the line.

c'mon send that 6'6" Guard down here, we'll market him and make him a a REAL NBA star.

just name your price - Deng, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah, Wallace, Hinrich...
our lottery pick next year (just think - that's 2 shots at Rose or Mayo!)

I think that many Bucks fans would give you him...look at the stats...he is easily the worst defensive shooting guard in the game who is starting. For every 25 points a game he score he gives up 30+.

I don't want Redd any where near my team. He will never be on a contender

[Ben]

The only Milwaukee player who interests me is Bogut, and as one or more of their fans has stated he's probably almost untouchable right now. Up until a month or so ago I agreed with those who thought that he'd been disappointing, but apparently they're utilizing him correctly now and he's looking very good. You don't trade a young center who can put up 18/10 even for 1 month, b/c there's obviously a lot of NBA potential there.

Yi? No thank you. I'm unimpressed. No, that's not right. I'm a little bit impressed. He's not a bust, and I thought that he had big bust potential. But per 40 minutes he's averaging 14.8ppg, 8.6rpg, 1spg, 1.6bpg, and 1.4apg. Those are mediocre numbers at best, especially for a 7 foot PF/C. And there's good reason to suppose that he's really 22 or 23, which would make those numbers even less impressive.

Plus, the Bucks would want a LOT in return for him, more than his value IMO.

Redd? No thank you, for reasons that others have covered.

Charlie V? No again, at least unless we trade Deng for someone really great. He may score well but gets outperformed by his opposition, which one cannot say about Tyrus or Noah.

So, since we're not getting Bogut we can all agree that there's no likely deal to be made.

EDIT:

Actually I should qualify my remarks about Redd. I don't think that he's as much of a liability as some folks seem to do. Yes, he plays bad D, but IMO his offense more than makes up for it. It's the price that queers the deal. If money were no object, I would be as fine with having Redd on our team to complement Kirk and BG as I would be with Corey Maggette. But money is an object, so we could only get Redd if we were also to jettison BG or Kirk plus one other quality player.

But BG for Redd doesn't strike me as enough of an upgrade to warrant the investment. Yes, Redd's taller, but he wouldn't improve our backcourt defense at all.

[Rerisen]

He kills the productivity of the other 4 guys on the floor even though he may get a block or a sports center dunk. His stats are worth their weight in paper right now because of the havoc he does to our offensive system.

Tyrus's stats are worth the exact same of any other NBA player. If you are saying the mistakes he makes more than negate those stats, it would show up in other statistics, which it does not.

If you look at his +/- for instance, for the first 5 games he started, they are actually less negative for the Bulls than our other 4 starters. His counterpoint PER is in the negatives, except at SF where he is played out of position, while Ben Wallace's counterpoint PER is +6 (meaning Big Ben is routinely outproduced).

Tyrus should be getting all the minutes behind Joe Smith and Noah should already be starting over Wallace.

[ATRAIN53]

I think that many Bucks fans would give you him...look at the stats...he is easily the worst defensive shooting guard in the game who is starting. For every 25 points a game he score he gives up 30+.

can't be much worse than Gordon.

i don't want him for his defense, i just want a G that has the physical ability to create his own shot, dunk the ball and draw contact and get to the charity stripe. this kid is a proven scorer in the NBA with those abilities.

no question that if he played both ends of the floor he would be an elite NBA superstar and the Bucks would be better.

but if the Bulls are not making a trade to acquire a legit scorer/finisher then there isn't much of a reason to make a trade. They have everything else on the roster except a true scorer who gets to the FT line.

[Ben]

can't be much worse than Gordon.

i don't want him for his defense, i just want a G that has the physical ability to create his own shot, dunk the ball and draw contact and get to the charity stripe. this kid is a proven scorer in the NBA with those abilities.

no question that if he played both ends of the floor he would be an elite NBA superstar and the Bucks would be better.

but if the Bulls are not making a trade to acquire a legit scorer/finisher then there isn't much of a reason to make a trade. They have everything else on the roster except a true scorer who gets to the FT line.

I hear you, but consider what we would have to trade in order to get Redd.

Wallace would make it work for sure, but there's no way that the Bucks are taking on his salary.

What then?

Kirk is BYC, which makes him hard to move. So is Noc.

BG plus PJ S&T? I'm not even sure if we can still S&T PJ, but maybe that would work. We would only take on PJ's salary for a year or so, and Redd would only be making around $4-5 million/year more than BG will be once he's re-signed, BUT that's still probably enough to put us into luxury tax territory if we re-sign Deng for $11-12million/yr.

So we would probably have to include Nocioni in order to drop his $7mil/yr in future seasons.

Is Redd worth BG plus Noc and a PJ S&T (if indeed we can still use PJ)? That's a different story.

My answer is "no."

[fudgie]

The only trades worth doing for Redd would put us in the luxury tax. -> NOT HAPPENING

[JeremyB0001]

And I really don't know how you could possibly believe Tyrus is average/decent on offense. If Tyrus is "decent," then Noah and his 7% better TS% must be even better than that, and then Joe Smith must be damn good.

Nah, I'm just not disregarding two thirds of Tyrus' NBA minutes the way you are. His offense has probably been below average this season but I don't see him as a 40% field goal shooter in the short or long term.

If you want specifics watch tyrus more closely, and I am stating things in general.

Sure, I'm just saying that Fish's specificity is helpful and persuasive.

Where some posters disagree with me is on how he should get there. I am one that does not agree with entitlement minutes unless you're not playing to win.

Right now, I believe we are playing to win (I don't agree, but thats what we are doing).

Yeah, I just disagree because I think playing time is an important element of development and that if we're playing to win now we shouldn't give minutes to inferior players instead of Tyrus for developmental purposes.

Tyrus won't get burn until we throw in the towel, and if he played 30 min a night, with the mistakes he makes to our system we wouldn't win 20 games in the season...he is that bad. He kills the productivity of the other 4 guys on the floor even though he may get a block or a sports center dunk. His stats are worth their weight in paper right now because of the havoc he does to our offensive system.

As I'm sure you realize, this is a very contentious point. While most of us concede that Tyrus doesn't run the sets exceptionally well, many feel that his other contributions outweigh that deficiency. I very strongly disagree that he's killing the productivity of his teammates because I see him making things happen on offense by commanding attention, occasionally creating on his own, and making some good passes, even if he's not properly running the sets. As someone with a coaching mindset, you place far greater importance on running plays correctly than others.

[coldfish]

Thanks for the compliments jeremy and thanks for the interesting discussion Neusch.

I really don't believe that they are letting him go through the motions in practice. I believe that they spend more time with Tyrus than with any other player. They know what they could have.

For some reason Tyrus hasn't been able to pick up how we play BOTH offense and Defense! He is much worse on offense...the man has no clue out there where he should be, and generally is plugging up our spaceing by wandering around looking for a pick to set.

On offense, I agree, as I said before. On defense, I really disagree. The only PF/C who executes the defense better than Tyrus Thomas is actually Noah.

Again, my understanding of the defense is that the PF/C's are supposed to control the paint and either take charges or block shots. Tyrus is the quickest to recognize breakdowns and get to the problem spot.

I believe that the team is very, very frustrated with his lack of a grasp of what we are trying to do, and thus is sitting him until he figures it out.

IMO, the three best players on the team right now are Joe Smith, Joakim Noah and Luol Deng, who all play where Tyrus does. I think this, more than anything, affects his playing time.

Tyrus won't get burn until we throw in the towel, and if he played 30 min a night, with the mistakes he makes to our system we wouldn't win 20 games in the season...he is that bad. He kills the productivity of the other 4 guys on the floor even though he may get a block or a sports center dunk. His stats are worth their weight in paper right now because of the havoc he does to our offensive system.

Until we cater down to him a bit, or until we add a point guard with Chris Paul type skills, I don't see how he will ever crack our rotation....at least not unless he starts figureing things out.

I really disagree with your overall impression of Tyrus. He is, was and always will be a huge positive on defense due to his abilities and good understanding of his role.

On offense, he is just horrid as a SF. When he stands away from the basket, he is pretty much useless. Boylan backs this up and recently commented about Tyrus staying close to the hoop.

When Tyrus is at PF, he isn't nearly the liability on offense that he is at SF. He creates spacing and high percentage looks just by standing under the hoop. If you watch, teams are much less likely leave Tyrus alone than they are, say, Ben Wallace. When they do, the team has learned to use the lob as an effective weapon.

.....

Overall, I think Tyrus is in a bind because the PF spot (his natural position) has become a real strength for the Bulls.

[2poor]

Not to thread jack, but since you're talking about Thabo and Tyrus, what are your thoughts on:

Duhon/Thabo/Tyrus to New Orleans for Pargo/Wright/Butler?

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=751719

[BrooklynBulls]

Not to thread jack, but since you're talking about Thabo and Tyrus, what are your thoughts on:

Duhon/Thabo/Tyrus to New Orleans for Pargo/Wright/Butler?

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=751719

Duhon for Pargo is a marginal move at best. Thabo for Butler is godawful for us, he gives us nothing we need. Tyrus, a 4/3, for Wright, a 3/4, is not a good move.We have 3 3/4's on the roster.

[2poor]

Duhon for Pargo is a marginal move at best. Thabo for Butler is godawful for us, he gives us nothing we need. Tyrus, a 4/3, for Wright, a 3/4, is not a good move.We have 3 3/4's on the roster.

Without reposting everything I've said on the trade board, I'll just say:

-Pargo = much needed spark off the bench
-Butler = needs a change of scenery, has shown he can be a productive player when in the right situation (it isn't in NO)
-Wright = can do more than "just be a 3/4." if he continues working on his outside shooting he could be Scottie Pippen-esque.

The money being exchanged isn't by any means outrageous, nor consisting of disgustingly long-deals. That and it brings guys back home, fans eat that **** up.

[Ben]

Not to thread jack, but since you're talking about Thabo and Tyrus, what are your thoughts on:

Duhon/Thabo/Tyrus to New Orleans for Pargo/Wright/Butler?

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=751719

Wow. I don't think that I've ever had occasion to say this yet, but here goes:

Worst... trade... ever.

[Susan]

Not to thread jack, but since you're talking about Thabo and Tyrus, what are your thoughts on:

Duhon/Thabo/Tyrus to New Orleans for Pargo/Wright/Butler?

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=751719

You already stole Chandler.

[2poor]

There was no theft, you gave him to them.