Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation

[DraftBoy10]

Ok Wade deserves more credit for thier defeat of the Mavericks, but Shaq's presence wasn't a distant 2nd. It was a close 2nd, quite close. He was still a major impact in that series, defensively, offensively, presence-wise regardless of what you want to say or believe.

On top of that, Avery Johnson said the same thing about Mike James in the 1st round of the playoffs two years back. Where did that get the Rockets?

[BBallFreak]

Nobody is denying Wade's talent but do you think he can win with Juwan Howard? Shaq tips the scale when paired with a talented player. He's was the only player in the league that presented a mismatch regardless of who he was playing against. EVERYTIME down the court. Yao is nothing close to that.

I don't see your point, though. T-Mac isn't just criticized for his time in Orlando. He's criticized for wanting to leave Toronto to be "the man" as you, yourself, pointed out. He's criticized for not getting Houston out of the first round, as well.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

A guy decides he wants to leave because he can't be the second fiddle. He does. He ends up falling flat on his face. Guess what? He gets criticized!

[Flash3]

-= original quote snipped =-



Gee thanks for the recap It doesn't matter where the offense went with Shaq on the court teams are forced to account for him. DO YOU UNDERSTAND???

I don't think you do.

And, YES It does, because when the offense went inside-out, this team was down 0-2, on the verge of goign 0-3, but the moment the offense went through Wade, yes Wade, not Shaq, the team won 4 straight.

Yes it DOES matter.

[Flash3]

Ok Wade deserves more credit for thier defeat of the Mavericks, but Shaq's presence wasn't a distant 2nd. It was a close 2nd, quite close. He was still a major impact in that series, defensively, offensively, presence-wise regardless of what you want to say or believe.

On top of that, Avery Johnson said the same thing about Mike James in the 1st round of the playoffs two years back. Where did that get the Rockets?

Nope, definitely not.

If you want to quantify defense in numbers form it goes: Haslem or Zo at 1, and then Posey, Payton and then Shaq.

Zo's defense entirely changed game 6, alone.

[jzmagik]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't see your point, though. T-Mac isn't just criticized for his time in Orlando. He's criticized for wanting to leave Toronto to be "the man" as you, yourself, pointed out. He's criticized for not getting Houston out of the first round, as well.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

A guy decides he wants to leave because he can't be the second fiddle. He does. He ends up falling flat on his face. Guess what? He gets criticized!

'

Do you even acknowledge Grant Hill's existence? Do you honestly think Tmac and a a healthy Ghill would not have made it out of the first round at some point? Tmac signed on with Orlando believing he would have a HOF calibre wingman playing beside him.

[DraftBoy10]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't see your point, though. T-Mac isn't just criticized for his time in Orlando. He's criticized for wanting to leave Toronto to be "the man" as you, yourself, pointed out. He's criticized for not getting Houston out of the first round, as well.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

A guy decides he wants to leave because he can't be the second fiddle. He does. He ends up falling flat on his face. Guess what? He gets criticized!

Wow. Do you not understand what you are saying?

Care to remind who and what Grant Hill was before he signed with the Magic. He was a superstar, one with plenty promise(even more so), and a damn great player. All-around beast with an amazing game.

If T-Mac didn't want to play second fiddle, why in gods name would he agree to sign with a team that was going to sign Grant Hill(or at one point Tim Duncan)?

Both players were better than Vince Carter. He's second fiddle to either one of them(barring health).

You're arguement there makes no sense.

The reason T-Mac wanted out was because of the lack of respect Toronto gave him, that was well documented in Toronto. Not his hate for Carter, it was his hate for thier management. Orlando and Chicago were flirting for McGrady, but McGrady ended going out to Orlando, when in Chicago he really could've been "the man".

He has had limited success in the playoffs with the Rockets when in only one matchup he's had the upper hand in terms of seeding, and when you average 25/7 it's hard to blame it squarely on you. No reason not to finish them off, but McGrady was not the reason they lost.

Get your facts straight, please.

[deknow]

-= original quote snipped =-

I don't think you do.

And, YES It does, because when the offense went inside-out, this team was down 0-2, on the verge of goign 0-3, but the moment the offense went through Wade, yes Wade, not Shaq, the team won 4 straight.

Yes it DOES matter.

okay buddy.

[BBallFreak]

Do you even acknowledge Grant Hill's existence? Do you honestly think Tmac and a a healthy Ghill would not have made it out of the first round at some point? Tmac signed on with Orlando believing he would have a HOF calibre wingman playing beside him.

What difference does it make?

He's not criticized because they lost, he's criticized because he forced his way out to be "the man" and couldn't win!

It was like Kobe after forcing (depending on your opinion) Shaq out! He got trashed because he had to be "the man". Well, that's what he asked for. Same with T-Mac. Fair or not, he set himself up for it...

[DraftBoy10]

-= original quote snipped =-

Nope, definitely not.

If you want to quantify defense in numbers form it goes: Haslem or Zo at 1, and then Posey, Payton and then Shaq.

Zo's defense entirely changed game 6, alone.

Oh okay, yeah Shaq made 0 impact on defense. Shaq's presence alone will make an impact on defense, it adjusts any offense. While his offense, adjusts any defense. That's the fair line with Shaq.

Payton and Posey couldn't have thier ways with thier man unless Shaq has thier back in the form of the defensive sets. That's the real guidance on defense, it's the backline of defense and why the Rockets and Spurs have always had tremendous defense with Yao & Duncan there.

[Showtime:Part2]

-= original quote snipped =-



Wade can carry a team... Just this team is one of the worst team I've EVER seen...

Not even Kobe could save them. Wade is doing as much as he can, but when your starting PG in Chris Quinn, and Ricky Davis is a core player, you're in trouble.

Add to the fact D-Wright is the starting SF, and he's a major bust.

Shaq fouling every 3 minutes...

That is the one of the worst teams I've ever een assembled honestly. Did you see what Wade can do when he has a DECENT supporting cast?

He can win you a title. Did you not see his title run when he won the title? That was carrying a team.

The man can carry a team, but his team is horrible, no defense, and even worst offense.

kobe had worse. his starting had smush and kwame. blount/shaq>kwame. anybody>smush. luke starting? how's that better than dorrell wright? daquean cook+haslem=odom.

[Flash3]

-= original quote snipped =-

Oh okay, yeah Shaq made 0 impact on defense. Shaq's presence alone will make an impact on defense, it adjusts any offense. While his offense, adjusts any defense. That's the fair line with Shaq.

Payton and Posey couldn't have thier ways with thier man unless Shaq has thier back in the form of the defensive sets. That's the real guidance on defense, it's the backline of defense and why the Rockets and Spurs have always had tremendous defense with Yao & Duncan there.

No where did I deny that Shaq made Zero impact, thanks for misreading and totally misunderstand my post entirely, and filling it with words I clearly did not say.

Shaq's impact in the paint wasn't as great as Zo's, for obvious reasons.

There's a reason why the Heat went with Zo for defense in crunch time, instead of Shaq.

[BBallFreak]

OMG, this is preposterous.

During the championship year, all we heard was that Shaq was washed up and couldn't play defense. "Oh, the pick and roll, the pick and roll!!! He's teh suxxors!". I had to deal with Rockets fans telling me that Yao was the bettter player and had more impact on the game all offseason following the ring. Now, when people are trying to trash Wade, Shaq's suddenly the main reason we won the championship and a defensive stalwart. I'm thoroughly confused by this.

[deknow]

-= original quote snipped =-



Oh okay, yeah Shaq made 0 impact on defense. Shaq's presence alone will make an impact on defense, it adjusts any offense. While his offense, adjusts any defense. That's the fair line with Shaq.

Payton and Posey couldn't have thier ways with thier man unless Shaq has thier back in the form of the defensive sets. That's the real guidance on defense, it's the backline of defense and why the Rockets and Spurs have always had tremendous defense with Yao & Duncan there.

You can't tell that guy anything. He has no idea why Shaq is widely considered THE MOST DOMINANT Centre of the modern era. It actually funny

[jzmagik]

OMG, this is preposterous.

During the championship year, all we heard was that Shaq was washed up and couldn't play defense. "Oh, the pick and roll, the pick and roll!!! He's teh suxxors!". Now, when people are trying to trash Wade, he's suddenly the main reason we won the championship and a defensive stalwart. I'm thoroughly confused by this.

Shaq was still being considered for best center in the league when the Heat won the chip. I don't understand..

[Showtime:Part2]

OMG, this is preposterous.

During the championship year, all we heard was that Shaq was washed up and couldn't play defense. "Oh, the pick and roll, the pick and roll!!! He's teh suxxors!". Now, when people are trying to trash Wade, he's suddenly the main reason we won the championship and a defensive stalwart. I'm thoroughly confused by this.

even IF he wasn't, zo was good. wasn't shaq 2nd in mvp voting?

[Flash3]

-= original quote snipped =-



kobe had worse. his starting had smush and kwame. blount/shaq>kwame. anybody>smush. luke starting? how's that better than dorrell wright? daquean cook+haslem=odom.

Definitely not.

Odom is a player very capable of running a team through, and obviously so. He anchored Miami's team for many parts during the season in 2003/2004, as he did in LA when Kobe was out that season, and also to start the season off last year, even WITH Kobe on the team; getting back from injury.

Haslem, as great of a player as he is, is a supplemental role player, who plays to his role; rebound, defend, effort, and score when given the shot; and he excels in that. But, he's not the same player Odom is/was for LA/Miami.....

[BBallFreak]

Shaq was still being considered for best center in the league when the Heat won the chip. I don't understand..

No he wasn't. Yao was, pretty much by consensus...

[DraftBoy10]

-= original quote snipped =-

No where did I deny that Shaq made Zero impact, thanks for misreading and totally misunderstand my post entirely, and filling it with words I clearly did not say.

Shaq's impact in the paint wasn't as great as Zo's, for obvious reasons.

There's a reason why the Heat went with Zo for defense in crunch time, instead of Shaq.

Did I say you said Shaq made 0 impact on defense? I just said that in hyperbole form.

Zo's impact in the paint could've been better, but bottom line is Shaq's more of a presence as Zo's what on O? Shaq commands his ways on O. While Zo...is what? Someone you can rotate off of to trap Wade.

Say what you wish, but I'm sure if you irritate the arguement more, I'll have to bust out the facts and stats.

[DraftBoy10]

-= original quote snipped =-



No he wasn't. Yao was, pretty much by consensus...

What the hell are you talking about? I'm a Rockets fan and Yao was not granted that acknowldgement. He was considered the "best regular season" center at that time.