Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation

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Post#121 » by shaqfan1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:30 am

BBallFreak wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



It's a team game, dude.


And apparently Tmac isn't part of that team since he doesn't deserve any of the blame for all of his first round exits. It's always someone else's fault, even when Tmac blames it on himself.

Look, Rockets fans can sit here and trash their role players all they want and I can sit here and glorify their role players all I want. Fact of the matter is, every year is supposed to be the year that Tmac gets out of the first round because every year he has a better team than he's ever had around him. And every year after he doesn't get out of the first round, somehow that team is transformed into the worst team he's ever played with by Rockets fans. Even when Tmac says before a playoff series to blame it on him if the Rockets lose, even when he shoots 39% while being guarded by a 5-11 Derek Fisher, even when he takes and misses stupid jumpshots at the end of game 7 when he clearly should have been driving, the fault for losing is on his teammates and not him. I just want to know when it will be his fault (even partially) when he loses a first round series.

And just to prove what I was saying above, answer these questions for me Rockets fans.

Is this the best team Tmac has ever played with?
Do you believe the Rockets will get out of the first round this year?

If you answered yes to both those questions, don't you think it would be a bit hypocritical if you blame this season's first round series loss completely on his teammates?
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Post#122 » by Induveca » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:57 am

13 straight losses. Against a lot of garbage teams.

You telling me your great amazing Wade couldn't lead a team of decent to solid players to just ONE win? He can't carry a team like many other stars, he's too out of control, turnover prone, and relies heavily on the refs bailing him out, which they are much more reluctant to do this year in the clutch. Also, no more healthy/productive Shaq has really revealed his flaws. If anything when he drops 35 this year those points are more JR Rideresque than Jordanesque. Useless.

During my two years in Miami, it was amazing how people/fans were cheering more for Wade than for the team. They had arguably the greatest center of all time, who was CONSTANTLY being double teamed, opening up the entire floor for Wade/Williams/Posey and yet the common fan thought Wade was the reason.

Complete and utter basketball ignorance in Miami compared to most NBA cities. That obviously doesn't apply here, but the inordinate amount of "Wade" and/or "Flash" names on the Miami board speaks volumes. You guys are right up there with the Kobe losers.

One thing though about Bryant, no way in hell he loses 13 in a row with the same supporting cast. His game is much better rounded.
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Post#123 » by BBallFreak » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:10 am

Induveca wrote:13 straight losses. Against a lot of garbage teams.

You telling me your great amazing Wade couldn't lead a team of decent to solid players to just ONE win? He can't carry a team like many other stars, he's too out of control, turnover prone, and relies heavily on the refs bailing him out, which they are much more reluctant to do this year in the clutch. Also, no more healthy/productive Shaq has really revealed his flaws. If anything when he drops 35 this year those points are more JR Rideresque than Jordanesque. Useless.

During my two years in Miami, it was amazing how people/fans were cheering more for Wade than for the team. They had arguably the greatest center of all time, who was CONSTANTLY being double teamed, opening up the entire floor for Wade/Williams/Posey and yet the common fan thought Wade was the reason.

Complete and utter basketball ignorance in Miami compared to most NBA cities. That obviously doesn't apply here, but the inordinate amount of "Wade" and/or "Flash" names on the Miami board speaks volumes. You guys are right up there with the Kobe losers.

One thing though about Bryant, no way in hell he loses 13 in a row with the same supporting cast. His game is much better rounded.


Wow, in one post you blame Wade for the losses, call him JR Rider, invoke the battle cry "teh refs!!!" and insult an entire fan base. Nice!

I think I speak for the entire city when I tell what you can do with your opinion...
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Post#124 » by TMACFORMVP » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:14 am

RoxFan08 wrote:
And then you go and make completely stupid, erroneous comments like this one. I challenge you to take a look at Tracy's playoff stats from last year, hell, from his career. I'm pretty sure he's top 5 all time in postseason scoring average, and his numbers last year were SICK. He had numerous 20+ point 12+ assist games. His teammates choked. Tracy brought them to the doorstep and they tripped.

Take a look at Yao's numbers from last year's playoff series. He was terrible. Tracy was a one man army on the floor, just like in Orlando. And he had it, down to the final minute.

Take your hate elsewhere. Or at least make comments that are relevant.


I agree with the fact that the role players in that series was horrible. Alston, Battier, Hayes, Howard and especially Head produced absolutely nothing while having literally no defensive attention on them (Game 4 only 4 total players scored, easily had the worst depth of any team last season) but McGrady was far from SICK in that series.

He averaged 25, 6, and 7, but shot only 39% from the field, and under 25% from three. He did have a great game 7, but his jumper which was off all series, he decided to settle for in the last couple minutes of the game when he was so effective taking it to the rim especially with Utah being in the penalty. He wasn't the reason we lost, but he could have been much better in that series, especially compared to what he's done in previous playoffs (near 30, 6, 6 on 44%). Same with Yao who was limited by Okur, 25 and 10 but on only 44% and averaged nearly 5 turnovers a game.

Nobody played well in that series. If the role players stepped up, no doubt we win (which I'd have to admit makes a good supporting cast, on paper it's all fine and dandy but it's pointless if nobody steps up in the playoffs which Wade was very fortunate to have) but the same could be said if either Yao or McGrady upped up their game as well.

To win in the playoffs everybody has to play up to their full most potential. That's what Wade and his teammates did (Wade exceeded averaging 35 and 8 for the series as a whole and a near 40 in their sweep of games), Shaq drew attention averaged 14 ppg and hit clutch FT's (had a very good playoffs over 18 points per game), Gary Payton had a game-winner, Walker chipped in with 14 points and Haslem did a FANTASTIC job on Dirk.

It's a team game, Miami won the championship because Wade was superb and everybody around him stepped up their games. For the Rockets, it's rare when our role players step up, but last season none of our stars really exceeded any expectations. Wade is the better playoff performer than McGrady and it's not a question.

To the original topic of the thread (which was essentially asking if the situation is the same as it was for McGrady in Orlando) and the answer is yes and no. It shows that no matter how great a player can be, everybody needs a supporting cast to win, and when you have a bad one which McGrady had and Wade has, then you're not going to win many games. Teams are too talented these days. No, because Wade has a championship ring and loads of playoff experience to fall back on which McGrady doesn't and thus resulting in more blame. It's not that hard to understand, the situation might be the same, but looking over what each have accomplished from a winning standpoint, it's kind of obvious to see who gets more blame, whether it's fair or not.
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Post#125 » by RoyceDa59 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:14 am

jzmagik wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Yes, but Wade's championship team also had a Shaq that was still performing well enough to challenge Yao for best center in the league, not to mention better role players than Tmac had on his Orlando team.


I agree, however, do keep in mind that McGrady plays with Yao Ming, thus he has a center equal to or more dominant than the one Wade won a title with, which was the whole basis of your argument.
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Post#126 » by Alex_De_Large » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:25 am

wade did win the ring thanks to shaq, in tmac situation in orlando he probably would not made make it into the playoffs, actually this is his first season without shaq and his team is pathetic, LOL @ wade.
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Post#127 » by shaqfan1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:30 am

Phoenix Rockets wrote:wade did win the ring thanks to shaq, in tmac situation in orlando he probably would not made make it into the playoffs, actually this is his first season without shaq and his team is pathetic, LOL @ wade.


Shaq averaged 13ppg in the Finals. Wade averaged 35ppg in the Finals. LOL @ You.
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Post#128 » by DraftBoy10 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:32 am

T-Mac in Orlando had Mike Miller for 2 seasons, Drew Gooden for one, and Juwan Howard for the other one. Can you believe that team made the playoffs 3 out of 4 times?

Darell Armstrong. Pat Garrity. Jeryl Sasser!!!!!

In Houston, he's missed 1 in every 3 games, and has played every bit as banged up as Wade, if not more. Even against Utah,(his only fair chance), EVERY SINGLE BASKET was derived via Tracy McGrady(scoring or assisting) EXCEPT FOR 9 BASKETS. Over the course of 7 games, that is stellar. That is what you call valuable. You can't look at yourself and say you didn't do it, it's just that you did all you could, but that wasn't enough.

Wade got to the 2nd round, and T-Mac didn't. Wade did it as a rookie, T-Mac hasn't has a 10 year pro. However, Wade beat the Hornets with a great cast; Jones, Butler, Odom, SVG and the **** ass conference. T-Mac's done this against Dallas and Utah, teams that have gone as far as the Finals, ECF in the past 2 years. There's a whole other world of difference in terms of competition. In Orlando, T-Mac faced I believe the Mashburn, BDiddy hornets, and the Pistons. Those were the better teams then there too.
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Post#129 » by Jules Winnfield » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:33 am

Look, the bottom line is Wade is not a superstar. He might have been in 2005 or whenever he won that title, but his performance now simply validates what most people observed: He's not that great a player without the whistle. When you have more points from free throws than field goals in the finals, I'm not going to put you on a historic level. At worst, it's ref favoritism at its absolute disgusting peak and at best, it is a player flopping his way to a championship. But he won, got finals MVP and got ALL THE CREDIT.

Now people want to make excuses for wade now that he has the worst team in the Eastern Conference. 13 game losing streak doesn't happen to teams that have a top 10 player. They just don't happen. People want to cite injuries: Kobe Bryant plays injured all the time, but finds a way to help his team win ballgames. Wade plays "injured" (he looks fine to me), losses ball game after ball game and his fans come and make excuses.

This is by far the worst I've ever seen from a superstar. Ever.

All the Miami fans that swore up and down that Wade was on Kobe's level, please shut up. Never again can you make that argument. Wade is now on Redd's level...maybe. And that's being generous.
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Post#130 » by Flash3 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:38 am

It's a syndrome of what have you done for me lately.

People were putting Wade over LeBron during the Finals in 05/06.

Then, people put LeBron over Wade the following year, and even over Kobe.

Wade hasn't done much lately, and he'll get criticized for it. -- Might as well get your punches in now, I guess....
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Post#131 » by shaqfan1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:48 am

Jules Winnfield wrote:Look, the bottom line is Wade is not a superstar. He might have been in 2005 or whenever he won that title, but his performance now simply validates what most people observed: He's not that great a player without the whistle. When you have more points from free throws than field goals in the finals, I'm not going to put you on a historic level. At worst, it's ref favoritism at its absolute disgusting peak and at best, it is a player flopping his way to a championship. But he won, got finals MVP and got ALL THE CREDIT.


Translation: Wade is not a superstar because teh refs!

Jules Winnfield wrote:Now people want to make excuses for wade now that he has the worst team in the Eastern Conference. 13 game losing streak doesn't happen to teams that have a top 10 player. They just don't happen.


Who says? That's just some random statement that you're trying to pass on as the general consesnsus. What if I said a top 10 player doesn't ruin his team's chances at a championship by trying to win Finals MVP and averaging 22ppg at below 40% shooting? Would you agree with me?

You know how I know Wade is a top 10 player? If a top 10 player thread was created, almost everyone would have Wade in their top 10.

Jules Winnfield wrote: People want to cite injuries: Kobe Bryant plays injured all the time, but finds a way to help his team win ballgames. Wade plays "injured" (he looks fine to me), losses ball game after ball game and his fans come and make excuses.


Oh so Kobe had two different surgeries during the offseason, too? When has Kobe played while needing surgery?

Jules Winnfield wrote:This is by far the worst I've ever seen from a superstar. Ever.


You just said he wasn't a superstar.

Jules Winnfield wrote:All the Miami fans that swore up and down that Wade was on Kobe's level, please shut up. Never again can you make that argument. Wade is now on Redd's level...maybe. And that's being generous.


So the Lakers fans have finally come to this thread. Look, this thread has nothing to do with Kobe, so I don't know why you're bringing up Kobe in this thread. If you wanna talk about how much better Kobe is than other players, then please make a seperate thread about it because in this thread what you're trying to discuss is irrelevant.
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Post#132 » by G35 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:52 am

One thing that Wade is experiencing now is the difference between having a dominant C on the floor and not having one.

Wade has had the luxury of having Shaq and Zo on his team for 3 years now. Now I know that overall I would rather have Shaq than Zo but last year I think the Heats most valuable player was Zo when he stepped in for Shaq for 20+ games.

Wade has been spoiled having Shaq/Zo on his team. His defensive abilities have been masked because Zo was always there to cover him when he gambled. Why is Shaq always in foul trouble? Wade does gamble a lot and Shaq picks up unneccesary fouls.

Now I don't think that the Heats record is all on Wade but this 13 game losing streak is causing Wade to lose some stripes. If he has so much will he needs to pull out a 50 point game and do some superstar ish right now........
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Post#133 » by Bucs80 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:54 am

Tracy McGrady has had less talent

Well in contrast Wade has had better talent than McGrady.

I doubt if Wade were in McGrady's situation. He would ever get into the playoffs like McGrady did with the Magic 3/4 years.

He dosen't seem like a player who could lead team with mediocre talent like Lebron/Kobe/McGrady/Iverson.
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Post#134 » by shaqfan1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:58 am

Bucs80 wrote:Tracy McGrady has had less talent

Well in contrast Wade has had better talent than McGrady.

I doubt if Wade were in McGrady's situation. He would ever get into the playoffs like McGrady did with the Magic 3/4 years.

He dosen't seem like a player who could lead team with mediocre talent like Lebron/Kobe/McGrady/Iverson.


I guess you missed the 2003-2004 season then. You may want to read up on that.
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Post#135 » by circushots » Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:59 am

Am I the only one here that's not completely BLIND?

I mean, has anyone actually watched Heat games recently? Dwyane Wade looks like he's about 60% healthy out there, despite whatever reports or what he says. Which is kind of scary considering that he still looks a fair bit quicker than the average guard out there, but that's besides the point.

For those of you who doubt his abilities, do yourself a favor and actually sit through a Heat game (yeah, I know it's painful right now) and come back and tell me that he's healthy.

I'm not saying that if he were healthy they'd be back to contender status, but I find it pretty pathetic that some of you knowledgeable posters can't see that the man is injured out there. If you play ball yourself you know how tough it is to even be out there let alone put up good stats when you're hobbled.
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Post#136 » by shaqfan1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:00 am

Plus what's with all the Wade is not a superstar because he's lost 13 in a row and Wade is not better than player X because he's lost 13 in a row?

Tmac in his career once lost 19 games in a row.
Kobe in his career once lost 10+ games in a row. (I don't remember the exact number).
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Post#137 » by G35 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:01 am

circushots wrote:Am I the only one here that's not completely BLIND?

I mean, has anyone actually watched Heat games recently? Dwyane Wade looks like he's about 60% healthy out there, despite whatever reports or what he says. Which is kind of scary considering that he still looks a fair bit quicker than the average guard out there, but that's besides the point.

For those of you who doubt his abilities, do yourself a favor and actually sit through a Heat game (yeah, I know it's painful right now) and come back and tell me that he's healthy.

I'm not saying that if he were healthy they'd be back to contender status, but I find it pretty pathetic that some of you knowledgeable posters can't see that the man is injured out there. If you play ball yourself you know how tough it is to even be out there let alone put up good stats when you're hobbled.



If you went into the locker room before games you would get to see every player is playing hurt. No one feels sorry for your injuries.......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Post#138 » by shaqfan1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:05 am

G35 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




If you went into the locker room before games you would get to see every player is playing hurt. No one feels sorry for your injuries.......


Correction: No one feels sorry for your injuries unless it's happening to players on your team.

Is that really your opinion? Do you really believe that no matter what, injuries can't be used as an excuse? Are you telling me that if I looked at your post history, not once would you use injuries as an excuse to why your team lost or why a player is not playing up to par? Nothing about the Suns losing to the Mavericks in the WCF only because Amare wasn't there?
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Post#139 » by dingclancy » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:07 am

Of course TMac and Wade's situation is different and I do not think he should be criticized for it since he won 'ship already. It is like the Suns and the Spurs. The Spurs have the right to coast because they have won it all. Same for Wade and Kobe since we know what they can do.

My problem is 13 straight losses. We all remember when we were counting TMac's 19 game losing streak with Orlando it almost broke the myth that having a superstar in your team should be good for ten games (at least) no matter what the roster is (of course Heat's cast is still NBA talent no matter how bad it is). TMac got a LOT of FLAK at that time and we kept saying other superstars will not allow his team to win 19 straight.

Now we have Wade losing 13 straight. Can you tell me why he could not get one win? If superstar x ever suffered a stretch of losing games they'd be bashing their teammates and do whatever it takes to win the next game. Where is the fire? Where is the "transcendent" game?

Superstars are worth ten games alone. Maybe a healthy Wade will give you fifteen if he is a top 3 player. So far the Heat have won 8. And as bad as the Knicks story is the Heat are 4.5 games behind. This is not just bad. This is train-wreck bad.
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Post#140 » by Baller 24 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:14 am

shaqfan1 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



So Tmac isn't at fault for never getting out of the first round?

So it was his teammates' fault that he didn't get out of the first round last year. It's his teammates' fault that his team is hovering around .500 this year?

Please answer these questions?


You go to NBA.com/players click on Tracy McGrady and look at his career playoff stats. They have been solid year in and year out. He does basically everything he has to do: score, play make, rebound, defend, shoot, everything. You can't blame it all on one player, its a team effort to win a game, to win a championship. Tmac is by far not a loser either, the Rockets winning % without him is only 23% which answers your question why this team is hovering around .500 this season, Tmac has been injured. Experience has A LOT to do with things, and frankly we don't have those types of players, we didn't have depth last year in the playoff as we used Luther Head as our backup SG, who did absolutely horrible in the playoffs, likewise for Shane Battier. When you lose you can't play the blame game.

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