if Howard, Bynum, Oden played in the 60s

[LakerFanMan]

double post

[LakerFanMan]

tripple post............my internet blows

[Kweli]

basically, if as is they went to back then, I feel oden would have the best carreer. the coaches back then would have required a knowledge of fundamentals to play, so i feel that bnoth bynum and dwight would be in the coaches dog house despite their talents.

How has Oden shown to have better knowledge of fundamentals than Dwight and Bynum?

Oden hasn't even played in an NBA game yet while Dwight and Bynum are/were tearing it up this season.

[tsherkin]

Howard is an MVP candidate in today's 32-team league and he's going to be in the dog house in the 60's? Think about your logic and you'll know how dumb of a statement you made.

30 teams, not 32.

[10scott10]

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How has Oden shown to have better knowledge of fundamentals than Dwight and Bynum?

Oden hasn't even played in an NBA game yet while Dwight and Bynum are/were tearing it up this season.

I'm a fan of bynum and really like dwight's play, but the fact is that at the same age Oden has a developed game. dwight is still getting the majority of his points of dunks. bynum has been working more skill stuff into his game, but he too is mainly a dunker. With oden, i ahve atleast seen a more complete array of hook shots.

[D.Brasco]

Oden would probably never be able to play, they didn't have mirofracture surgery in the 60's. the injury he sustained now would have probably ended his career back then. Bynum would probably still look like he did as a rook since weight training wasn't emphasised much then.

[Warspite]

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Is this guy serious? Have you ever played basketball in your life? How about a pick up game? You don't have to have the best fundamentals to dominant. In a playground game, the biggest guy will always be picked first unless he plays like Kwame Brown because he controls the boards and put backs and he anchors the defense.

Bynum and Dwight would be the biggest centers out there. They won't sit in the dog house. They'd have HOF careers for sure.

That has to be one of the dumbest posts and analysis ever made on RealGM.

Are you serious?? Do you know your NBA History??

Lets look at 1964
We have Odom, Howard, Bynum, Thurmond and Lucas being drafted in a NBA with 9 teams and these Centers playing already in the NBA

1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Belamy
4. Kerr
5. Beatty
6. Embry

So theres 6 HoF or near Hof Centers in a 9 team league and you want to put 5 more in it. Where will they play? Next season Wilt is traded and Thurmond takes his spot. Theres simply not enough roster spots for a 7 ft highschool kid with potential but little ability in a 9, 10 or 12 team NBA. In the next few yrs Reed, Kareem, Unseld, Cowens and Lanier will all be drafted. thats 5 more HoFers that will take roster spots.

I honestly dont know how you can have 14 HoF centers in a 9 team NBA. Wont somebody have to come off the bench?

[OneAnswer]

RealGM Circa '60s



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[Myth_Breaker]

Sorry, Patterns, but by unfounded automatic assuming that Bynum/Oden/Dwight would be better off in the 60s (cause they'd deal so easily with Wilt, Thurmond or Russell, right) you are giving us, Laker fans, a bad name (most often I see such ignorance on past decades among the Jordanaires). In addition to things already said by Warspite and others, these guys wouldn't even be the biggest Cs back then, since measured barefoot/without college weight updated/without modern strength training Andrew would be listed at like 6-11, 240 (exactly's Bellamy size!), while Dwight - at 6-10, 230 (about Russell's size). Many posters ignore this simple, yet fundamental aspect - so current guys wouldn't have advantage even from purely physical POV.

[thamadkant]

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I hate this arugment...

How old are YOU?

Don't you realize that Hakeem was pretty much all size and athletic ability when he hit the league? He didn't even start playing basketball until he was 15 years old. He redshirted his first year at Houston, then barely played as a redshirt freshman. He spent time working out with Moses Malone.

But even after four years of college practices and three years of playing time and a summer with Moses Malone, he was still raw when he hit the league, relying primarily on instinct, power and his mobility to dominate until later in his career, when he started to develop the Dream Shake.

Kareem is a solid example, sure, but Hakeem is a BAD example because he was a player very much like Dwight is now, only he eventually developed into something much more.

Hakeem dominated he league not because of his athletic abilities but his array of post moves, instincts (he played soccer as goal tender), and basketball know how he learnt from Moses as you said.

But saying Dwight Howard will develop Hakeem-like skills or atleast follow the same path... its not impossible but its unlikely... he is more like to be an inferior Shaq, relying on size, stength and good coordination.

Moses Malone isnt the type that dominated with basketball skills too, he is much like Dwight, Amare etc but with more fundamental skills.

And how old am I, I grew up watching the 80's basketball.

And its true that GMs draft players based on potential, size, athletic ability... because they assume or PLAN to turn these athletes to basketball players through coaching and development.
Some players who doesnt have the athletic abilities are over looked... you know this and everyone knows this.. unless of course the elite picks that have combination of both.

[Myth_Breaker]

RealGM Circa '60s

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PERFECT summary of B-Scott's stance!

[writerman]

They'd be the best big men in the league and have a couple of 100 point games on their resume.

I'd have loved to see Prime Wilt against any of these guys. He'd have embarrassed any of them so badly they'd have given up the game.

hmmm...."NetsForce"... the handle says it all...you should be forgiven I suppose because you probably also think Krstic is a real center...

[tsherkin]

Hakeem dominated he league not because of his athletic abilities but his array of post moves, instincts (he played soccer as goal tender), and basketball know how he learnt from Moses as you said.

But he didn't develop his post moves until much later in his career; for years, his game was very, very raw.

But saying Dwight Howard will develop Hakeem-like skills or atleast follow the same path... its not impossible but its unlikely... he is more like to be an inferior Shaq, relying on size, stength and good coordination.

I didn't say he would, I said the possibility was there because Hakeem didn't really dominate with his full array of developed moves until mid-way through his career. It took time to develop that game, he was very, very raw as a rookie and in his first four or five years.

Moses Malone isnt the type that dominated with basketball skills too, he is much like Dwight, Amare etc but with more fundamental skills.

That's really kind of my point...

And how old am I, I grew up watching the 80's basketball.

Not closely enough, apparently, because you're still using the the Hakeem example as if it is valid. Hakeem was not a guy who hit the league with a really sound skill set or a deep background in basketball. He worked at it and eventually became that way. Your other example, Kareem, was the classic example of a skilled, well-trained big man who hit the league with the appropriate base skills.

Again, you cracked this one out:

You have to realize... today the players are more athletes than basketball players... a lot of players were drafted because of their atheltic ability... big size and tremendous coordination for their size...

but if you watch "basketball" players.. like Hakeem.. Kareem for example.. those guys have moves.. have basketball know how.. they dominated with them...

And it's wrong; to use Hakeem as an example AGAINST modern players on the basis of the use of skills vs. athleticism is disingenuous because for years, he was basically power, quickness and hops and not much else. Around 6th year in the league, he started to get going with his developed skill set and he really started to dominate in the early/mid 90s, about halfway through his career. He held that for about four years, before age and injury took him into his decline (as well as the construction of his roster).

Anyway, Hakeem even WITH his moves is a poor example to use because his moves were designed to exploit his particular brand of mobility; Hakeem himself has always said that he wanted to dominate with quickness instead of power and that his moves were all designed to exploit that advantage he had over basically every other center. So his style of play is fundamentally based around athletic ability, even though he ultimately developed outstanding footwork and an array of moves and counters.

Kareem had three years of college under him; these days, he'd have been considered to have mediocre athleticism and to be reasonably old. Remember, his first season in the NBA, he was 22 years old. People today wig out about a player being more than 20 or so more often than not. So he was old, couldn't dominate with athletic ability and didn't have a power game.

But yes, he was a guy who dominated entirely with skill and height.

And I'd still disagree with you on your point that basketball players today are more athletes than ballers... there are indeed many players who are drafted on purely physical reasons, that's true... DeSagana Diop comes to mind, Hasheem Thabeet when he gets drafted, etc.

But especially now that HS ballers are no longer allowed to be drafted, the major trend is actually to look for guys like Kevin Garnett: so you're looking at Euro bigs, Andray Blatche, etc.

These guys are in fact more like oversized small forwards, MORE skilled in ways than your conventional big man.

The big difference between then and now is actually a change in the disposition of developing players and coaches, a reticence towards playing a low-post power game. That's why players like Shaq and Dwight are so rare. Everyone wants to be KG or Dirk or whatever, they don't want to be Shaq and ripped on for having no range outside of 12 feet, etc. It's also hard physically, and that's something a lot of guys don't want to deal with.

That is a lot different than guys being more athletes than basketball players. This is what happens when you draft guys earlier than you did previously and what happens when you have a draft cycle.

You should also notice that there are guys like Kevin Love, Roy Hibbert, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, Chris Kaman, etc, that are starting to hit the league... big men come to the league in cycles and it's starting to heat up again. People are entirely too reactionary about this stuff.

Every analyst who says the art of the big man or that bigs are a vanishing breed, well, they're insane, IMO. The league has moved to a lot of small ball and a lot of overreliance on wings and what-not on account of lack of supply and while there have been trends away from big men, they are not extinct, they are simply rare and that's not new.

[The Notic]

Oden would probably never be able to play, they didn't have mirofracture surgery in the 60's. the injury he sustained now would have probably ended his career back then. Bynum would probably still look like he did as a rook since weight training wasn't emphasised much then.

Best answer yet.

[circushots]

^ really good post.

[LakerFanMan]

RealGM Circa '60s

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This is frickin classic..........

Any way, what's all this crap about Oden having a "complete game"? How in the hell do you know his game's complete if he hasn't played yet? Yea he's great prospect, but if he was a bust he certainly wouldn't be the first great prospect to bust in the NBA. So many people have inducted him into the HOF already and he hasn't even stepped on an NBA floor yet. It's laughable.

[otownflava21]

yea i shouldnt of included oden considering he hasnt played yet. replace oden with amare then.

[10scott10]

RealGM Circa '60s

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sir, you are still a genius.

my favorite part is the wilt ad.

[10scott10]

yea i shouldnt of included oden considering he hasnt played yet. replace oden with amare then.

excluding the microfracture not existing back then, I feel that amare would have a gret carreer back then.

his game has enough moves to survive back then. I feel he would have trouble on defense, but on the plus side he wouldn't be in as much foul trouble becasue less fouls were called.

I think what makes him really good for back then would be his range, which was a required skill of centers back then.

[penbeast0]

Heck, maybe their athletic ability would have gotten them into the NBA where, like today, they would be likely to quickly develop into top NBA center probably with better stats in the more pivot oriented game.

Or, considering none of them graduated college and only Oden even made it through one year, they might have been yet another sad story of a playground legend who got hooked on the streets . . . .back then you had to wait for your college class to graduate and the only other real alternative was the Globetrotters who none of the three seem to have the personality for. (Both Wilt and Connie Hawkins who had much flashier games HATED playing for the Trotters and Connie, remember, didn't play in the NBA until age 27 after serious knee injuries forced him to change his game to compensate.)

The pros and cons of growing up were different then. Lots more prep stars failed to make it and none of those three are exactly the Tim Duncan prototype that thrives in college.