Bucks-Hornets Postgame Thread 1/21/08

[stellation]

I think I've seen Bogut call plays coming up the court about 80% as often as I've seen Mo call plays.

[europa]

-= original quote snipped =-



I totally agree. I guess we just disagree on the important of that player needing to be a PG and IMO you are taking a somewhat unfair shot at Mo by comparing him to Paul.

I'm just talking about how invaluable it is to have a PG who can take over a game and make sure the right things are done. That's one of the many things that makes Paul so valuable. I wish the Bucks had a player who could do that - and he wouldn't have to be as good as Paul, just be consistently able to make sure the right things are done when his team needs that to occur.

[Nowak008]

When you have a top 3 player in the league it makes the game SO much easier for your team.

Fixed.

[paul]

Chris Paul makes Tyson Chandler look outstanding. If I counted right he gave him 4 alley oops? Bogut averages 20+ with CP3 at the point - he makes mo look, well, like a short shooting guard.

Obviously Paul is light years beyond Mo but I feel obligated to point out that Mo set Bogut up with at least 3 easy dunks/layups tonight. Bogut was struggling offensively and Mo actually did a nice job of keeping him involved on offense by setting him up with some easy looks.

2nd quarter:

Andrew Bogut makes slam dunk (Mo Williams assists)
Andrew Bogut makes dunk (Michael Redd assists)

3rd quarter:

Andrew Bogut makes layup (Mo Williams assists)
Andrew Bogut makes layup (Mo Williams assists)

There are 3 from Mo and 1 from Redd. All layups and dunks. 4 of his 6 makes.

Bogut was was having a hard time on offense tonight against Chandler and it was the rare game when he teammates still made an effort to keep him involved by setting him up for some easy shots.

True, this was more of a comment on Paul than a comment on Bogut or Mo, and whilst Mo did attempt to keep Bogut involved at times when he was struggling this is more of a rarity than the norm. My point was more that Chandler is overrrated purely because he plays with Paul who seems to get him 3-4 alley oop dunks a game, contributing 6-8 ppg to his average of 12. I was just dreaming of us having a pg like that looking after Bogut and how it might impact his game and indeed this team.

Chandler did play excellent D on Bogut tonight keeping him further from the hoop than he likes, and the long range hooks weren't falling, although I still felt Bogut played pretty well.

[midranger]

Just saw the highlights. Chris Paul standing at the top of the arc, lobs a pass to Tyson Chandler for the dunk. No Bucks within 5 feet. Times 2.

I could make those passes.

How about Bogut keeping his body on his guy?

[El Duderino]

My point was more that Chandler is overrrated purely because he plays with Paul who seems to get him 3-4 alley oop dunks a game, contributing 6-8 ppg to his average of 12

Chandler isn't overrated

His job for them is to defend and rebound, both of which he does very well. Points from him aren't a big priority. If he averaged 10ppg instead of 12, he'd still be a damn valuable player to the Hornets. They know and don't care he's limited offensively and scores a good chunk of his points via put backs, dunks, and other riff raff.

[Stopshere2]

Dave Berri at the Wages of Wins has a new metric that weights player's WP contributions by position:

Calculating PAWS

Position matters in evaluating basketball players. Centers and point guards do not do the same things on a basketball court. Consequently, if you wish to compare players you must adjust for position played. The per-minute position averages for Win Score (from the years 1993-94 to 2004-05) are as follows:

Centers: 0.225
Power Forwards: 0.215
Small Forwards: 0.152
Shooting Guards: 0.128
Point Guards: 0.132

The contributions of centres and power forwards to wins produced has significantly outweighed that of the other 3 positions. Just saying ...

[Simulack]

- My point was more that Chandler is overrrated purely because he plays with Paul who seems to get him 3-4 alley oop dunks a game, contributing 6-8 ppg to his average of 12.

I think everyone knows that Chandler has a very limited offensive game and scores primarily from being set up for easy layups/dunks and from putbacks.

He's valued because he is a good defender (despite not being much of a shot blocker) and one of the best rebounders in the NBA. I've always liked him, we are lucky the Bulls gave him up and took Wallace instead.

[Simulack]

Dave Berri at the Wages of Wins has a new metric that weights player's WP contributions by position:

Calculating PAWS

Position matters in evaluating basketball players. Centers and point guards do not do the same things on a basketball court. Consequently, if you wish to compare players you must adjust for position played. The per-minute position averages for Win Score (from the years 1993-94 to 2004-05) are as follows:

Centers: 0.225
Power Forwards: 0.215
Small Forwards: 0.152
Shooting Guards: 0.128
Point Guards: 0.132

The contributions of centres and power forwards to wins produced has significantly outweighed that of the other 3 positions. Just saying ...

Interesting numbers.

BTW, whenever I look at Bogut now, I can't help but see his face as your avatar.

[stellation]

Just saw the highlights. Chris Paul standing at the top of the arc, lobs a pass to Tyson Chandler for the dunk. No Bucks within 5 feet. Times 2.

I could make those passes.

How about Bogut keeping his body on his guy?

Watch the game. Bogut wasn't the problem at all.

[paul]

My point was more that Chandler is overrrated purely because he plays with Paul who seems to get him 3-4 alley oop dunks a game, contributing 6-8 ppg to his average of 12

Chandler isn't overrated

His job for them is to defend and rebound, both of which he does very well. Points from him aren't a big priority. If he averaged 10ppg instead of 12, he'd still be a damn valuable player to the Hornets. They know and don't care he's limited offensively and scores a good chunk of his points via put backs, dunks, and other riff raff.

No doubting his defense which is very good, but I do hear him constantly talked up as a scoring threat and all around player on other boards. Unless that threat includes the pass he receives, there is virtually none. When we talk about defensive centers like Dalambert and Haywood he is constantly rated above them, yet without Paul (and Hinrich before him) I think those arguments are pretty thin.

[El Duderino]

-= original quote snipped =-



No doubting his defense which is very good, but I do hear him constantly talked up as a scoring threat and all around player on other boards. Unless that threat includes the pass he receives, there is virtually none. When we talk about defensive centers like Dalambert and Haywood he is constantly rated above them, yet without Paul (and Hinrich before him) I think those arguments are pretty thin.

Chandler is the 4th in rebounding, plays good defense, is long/athletic, and only takes shots he can make. He's a damn good player and one of the reasons they have the 4th best record in the NBA.

I don't hear him being called a superstar, but he'd be a huge upgrade for a large number of NBA teams at center.

[xTitan]

Watched this game from the mid 2nd quarter until scrub time in the 4th and many things have jumped out but its really more of the same. The biggest problem with this team is there defense and that goes directly to the perimieter. For some odd reason the Bucks switch on almost every pick, I do not see any other NBA team to that, its particularly bad for the Bucks because they are pretty short, pretty unathletic, and definitely not tough. it seems like they funnel everyone directly to Bogut and many times its Bogut (and Yi) left to guard at least 3 guys, not sure where the guards and small forwards go. Now Ivey was awful today but he usually battles, but he is the only one...there defense is like a bad combination man and zone, almost a non-matchup defense if you will. It really goes back to poor athletes, lack of desire, and overall toughness.

Offensively, its becoming high pick and roll or low post with Bogut, Bogut is actually getting better every game with finding the open perimeter player coming off the double team (which NO did more then I thought they would until the got the lead) but for some reason the Bucks shooters are really not doing a good job of hitting the open jumper, with the exception of Mo. Its strange but Redd seems to concentrate better when he guarded and puts his head down, Bell just isn't a good shooter nor is Simmons and CV, no consistency among them. At this point in time Yi is just lost and is killing this team, he is lost on defense and he is lost on offense, I think he is an excellent talent and believe he has hit the wall mentally and it shows, he needs the all-star break badly. The other huge problem is that the Bucks have no one who can make a good entry pass into the post, I mean no one at all. As I have said many times, this is skill to get it to Bogut at the right time and where he can do damage, no one does it, Mo is to small to go over an aggressive defender and no one else is smart enough or determined enough....not many buy into the team concept. On the positive side Mo and Bogut seem to be strengthening there report and playing well together, Bogut is finishing so much stronger at the basket then he used to and mo is confident looking for him.

One last thing, I mentioned how Yi is lost, tired, and playing poorly on both sides of the court, CV and Simmons are just plain awful and bring nothing to the table night in and out.

[europa]

Chandler over Dalembert is a no-brainer. I'd take him over Haywood too but Haywood has really improved. He's having a solid season so far.

[paul]

Watched this game from the mid 2nd quarter until scrub time in the 4th and many things have jumped out but its really more of the same. The biggest problem with this team is there defense and that goes directly to the perimieter. For some odd reason the Bucks switch on almost every pick, I do not see any other NBA team to that, its particularly bad for the Bucks because they are pretty short, pretty unathletic, and definitely not tough. it seems like they funnel everyone directly to Bogut and many times its Bogut (and Yi) left to guard at least 3 guys, not sure where the guards and small forwards go. Now Ivey was awful today but he usually battles, but he is the only one...there defense is like a bad combination man and zone, almost a non-matchup defense if you will. It really goes back to poor athletes, lack of desire, and overall toughness.

Offensively, its becoming high pick and roll or low post with Bogut, Bogut is actually getting better every game with finding the open perimeter player coming off the double team (which NO did more then I thought they would until the got the lead) but for some reason the Bucks shooters are really not doing a good job of hitting the open jumper, with the exception of Mo. Its strange but Redd seems to concentrate better when he guarded and puts his head down, Bell just isn't a good shooter nor is Simmons and CV, no consistency among them. At this point in time Yi is just lost and is killing this team, he is lost on defense and he is lost on offense, I think he is an excellent talent and believe he has hit the wall mentally and it shows, he needs the all-star break badly. The other huge problem is that the Bucks have no one who can make a good entry pass into the post, I mean no one at all. As I have said many times, this is skill to get it to Bogut at the right time and where he can do damage, no one does it, Mo is to small to go over an aggressive defender and no one else is smart enough or determined enough....not many buy into the team concept. On the positive side Mo and Bogut seem to be strengthening there report and playing well together, Bogut is finishing so much stronger at the basket then he used to and mo is confident looking for him.

One last thing, I mentioned how Yi is lost, tired, and playing poorly on both sides of the court, CV and Simmons are just plain awful and bring nothing to the table night in and out.

This struck me in the game as well and I've noticed it quite a bit since we started going inside to Bogut more. For one of the best shooters in the nba, Redd is missing a lot of wide open J's off inside out assists, at least two tonight (I missed most of the first half). CV, Bobby, Yi and Bell have also been guilty of this recently, Bogut's assist numbers should be far higher this month than they are. It's almost like guys aren't used to the catch and shoot situation off a kick out from the post.

[Max Green]

I'd take Chandler over Yi.

[Simulack]

Offensively, its becoming high pick and roll or low post with Bogut, Bogut is actually getting better every game with finding the open perimeter player coming off the double team (which NO did more then I thought they would until the got the lead) but for some reason the Bucks shooters are really not doing a good job of hitting the open jumper, with the exception of Mo. Its strange but Redd seems to concentrate better when he guarded and puts his head down, Bell just isn't a good shooter nor is Simmons and CV, no consistency among them.

That's really, really stood out the last few games. If there was a plan to how this team was assembled and behind many of the personnel moves we have made, it was to surround Bogut with shooters because of his passing ability. Now that is finally starting to come to fruition as Bogut is commanding a double-team regularly and passing out of it. But none of the guys we have brought in can consistently nail a 3. I wish I had kept track of how many wide-open 3's we have missed these last 7-8 games when the offense has been more inside/out.

[paul]

Chandler over Dalembert is a no-brainer. I'd take him over Haywood too but Haywood has really improved. He's having a solid season so far.

I'm just saying that his numbers are inflated by playing with the best pg of this time, and a very good one before that in Hinrich. For example if you put him in our system I think he'd be closer to 8-9 ppg, his D and rebounding would still be excellent but his points would really dry up without those extra couple of gimme buckets a game. He's a good role player imo, but he's constantly rated well above that.

[Angry Jimmy]

-= original quote snipped =-



I'm just saying that his numbers are inflated by playing with the best pg of this time, and a very good one before that in Hinrich. For example if you put him in our system I think he'd be closer to 8-9 ppg, his D and rebounding would still be excellent but his points would really dry up without those extra couple of gimme buckets a game. He's a good role player imo, but he's constantly rated well above that.

Chandler is also very quick and an above average leaper for a 7 footer. Part of the reason he can get so many easy alley-oop dunks is because he is faster and can jump higher that most other C's in the league. When Chris Paul is on the floor with Hornets big men like Armstrong or Ely, you don't see Paul tossing lob after lob to those guys because they lack the quickness to get up and finish those types of plays. Most of Chandler's offensive game certainly leaves something to be desired, but I'd bet that you couldn't just insert any random 7 footer into the line up with Chris Paul and see the same flurry of highlight reel dunks.

[iveyfanclub]

Just an opinion, but I believe the Bucks are one of the worst teams I have seen at defending the pick and roll. Simply no effort to fight through a screen and no communication between the two defenders involved.