Bulls @ Grizzlies Postgame Thread: If your embarrassed say I

[girlygirl]

I am not scared of admitting Gordon had a decent game -- or even a great game -- when I feel that he did so. But I'm not going to be bullied or insulted into agreeing to something I don't agree with. I don't believe that scoring 25 points in a game necessarily means you played well. There are a bunch of guys who can put up 25 points in a game -- that doesn't mean they had a good game -- especially when their club puts forth a crappy effort for most of the contest on both ends of the floor and loses embarassingly to one of the worst teams in the league. Was BG the worse player on the floor for the Bulls today? No, he was not. He may have even been the best player on the floor for the team -- possibly. But that doesn't mean he was particularly good -- it just means that all of his teammates were worse.

As for BG at the point guard spot, I think that's just setting him up to fail. But if the club believes they need to take a look at him at that spot to see if he can run the team for 30+ MPG, then they should go ahead and try it. Who knows? Maybe Gordon will prove me wrong and prove to be a decent PG. Despite what I may come across like to others on this board, I can't claim to be all-knowing, especially when it comes to basketball, as I've been wrong more than once before. Maybe I'll be wrong in this case as well -- although I dount it.

[girlygirl]

There you go, she's jealous that Gordon won a championship and Hinrich didn't.

LOL...Lots of people in the NBA have won NCAA championships . I'd be really tired if I had to worry about being jealous of all these guys having something none of the KU guys do...and if I worried about that, I wouldn't have time to do anything else...like work...or eat...or sleep...

[bullzman23]

I am not scared of admitting Gordon had a decent game -- or even a great game -- when I feel that he did so. But I'm not going to be bullied or insulted into agreeing to something I don't agree with. I don't believe that scoring 25 points in a game necessarily means you played well. There are a bunch of guys who can put up 25 points in a game -- that doesn't mean they had a good game -- especially when their club puts forth a crappy effort for most of the contest on both ends of the floor and loses embarassingly to one of the worst teams in the league. Was BG the worse player on the floor for the Bulls today? No, he was not. He may have even been the best player on the floor for the team -- possibly. But that doesn't mean he was particularly good -- it just means that all of his teammates were worse.

Be honest here. If Hinrich had 25 points and 5 assists, would you say Hinrich had a good game or that all of his teammates were worse?

Look Gordon delivered. His job is to score and he did that fairly well today. Right now his job is not to get six assists and five rebounds. It's simply to score. Despite what you say, the game was not over when he was getting his points. He wasn't out there for garbage minutes. He makes that missed layup, and he's suddenly shooting 45%. One miss is never the difference between a good and bad game.

[Rerisen]

Heck, the Bulls could start BG and Hinrich and just reverse their roles for a couple games, or even a half. Maybe it would help Kirk's FG% to be more in the role of the spot up shooter, or guy coming off the screens and curls.

We could also start Noah over Wallace, which might make Hinrich/Thabo be somewhat more feasible (though I have my doubts). We could just start Kirk and BG (like last year hmm) and go back to what once worked just fine.

The problem is Boylan has no new ideas. Won't try anything new and the team just keeps dragging along suffering the same problems game after game. Its quite agonizing to watch. Like a nightmare that you have every night but can't do anything to stop it once it begins.

[Biggame 33]

hi i'm andres nocioni

oh god this basketball is burning my hands i better shoot it as soon as i get it

Nocioni is a cancer to this teams offense and should be traded if possible.
He never looks to pass and shoots wild shots with everyone on his back.
He is nothing more than a wild animal running up and down the court with horrible shot selections.

[girlygirl]

I simply refuse to say he played well in a game where the entire Bulls team stunk up the joint.

Girlygirl, clarify this. I don't understand. Are you arguing that Gordon cannot get credit because everyone else stunk up the joint?

I'm just saying that he did not play well enough individually to overcome the fact that the rest of the team stunk. You want to give him credit for not playing as poorly as the rest of his teammates? Fine -- I'll give him credit for not playing as poorly as the other Bulls today. But does it really matter? It's not like he was able to take the team on his back and lead them to a win.

And I still don't think he played all that well. At no time did he get so hot from the field or make enough plays in a row that I thought the momentum of the game was going to change in Chicago's favor. At best, he was ok. He's certainly been a lot better in many other games this year than he was today.

[anorexorcism]

LEAVE GIRLYGIRL ALONE! ANYONE WHO WANTS TO DEAL WITH HER HAS TO GO THROUGH ME!

seriously though although I didn't watch the game I don't think 8/19 is anything to run home with. And since Gordon is touted as a game-changer, clutch player, yadayadayada, where were the game changing heroics? We had the lead down to 9 with 4 minutes left. It's Gordon time. Call for the ball. Get open. Beat your man off the dribble. Drive to the hoop. Whatever.

To me the game just looked like an opportunity for him to inflate his stats but in reality did nothing for the team's efforts. 25 for Gordon is small change when we all know he's capable of dropping 40, especially when you consider that with the exception of Miller there were puny guards that he could have completely harrassed.

This was a crappy Memphis team. He should have been abusing Conley and Lowry.

Gordon got to the line six times. If this were a great game for him he would have gone to the line 13-15 times.

That's all I think girlygirl is trying to say here. He's capable of doing much more, and if he was truly hellbent on getting his team the W he would have shown all of that.

Now the Orlando game? That was what I call Gordon giving it his all. But this is not close. This is a "typical" game for Ben. Nothing more nothing less. Move on.

[bre9]

This was one of those games the Bulls were not up for. That's how it's been all season one game their full of energy the next game they seem like they don't even care about showin up to play the game.

Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni were the only ones showed up to play. These two have been playing really well the last few games. And it's a shame because these two guy's are coming off the bench and our out shining the starters.

Thabo had an off game which mean offensively it wasn't their tonight. Defensively he wadsn't as sharp as he usually be. Joe Smith has been off the last few games maybe he needs some rest. Noah is still my favorite but he wasn't full of energy tonight. Tyrus Thomas needs to find himself again he missed few shots around the basket and a wide open dunk. Ben Wallace was blah as usual.

Luol Deng has played like crap the last few games. He doesn't look his self at all. If he's still hurt he needs to sit out because he's hurting the team with his crappy play.

Kirk started a point guard and guarded another pg Mike Conley. That's what all the Kirk fans were calling for and they got their wish. But Kirk still not running the point well at all. Mike Conley was to fast for him he sliderd past him a couple times and got in the lane to create for other team mates. Kirk is nothing more than a backup SG he took 14 shots and only made 5 of them and he didn't get to the freethrow line one time. He's no different from Gordon just like Gordon he's a short SG but the difference is BG is a better scorer and he get's to the line more(6-6 from the freethrow line tonight). I think the Bulls should just keep starting Thabo at the 2 spot with Duhon at point and then bring Gordon and Kirk off the bench together.

Also Gordon should get more minutes at the PG spot he looked decent tonight. Made a couple of play's for others(5 assists) and he didn't turn it over much(1 turnover).

[Rerisen]

seriously though although I didn't watch the game I don't think 8/19 is anything to run home with. And since Gordon is touted as a game-changer, clutch player, yadayadayada, where were the game changing heroics?

If we are expecting Ben Gordon to get the team back in the game or 'win it' for us then how about we put him in the starting lineup?

The Grizzlies had a 7 point lead at the break, and as per usual with an inept offensive lineup, their lead had creeped up to 10 already before Boylan rushed Gordon back in with the emergency sub at 7:52.

Ben finished the third with 14 points about right on his normal scoring pace, but the Bulls never got close again and were still trailing by 12 at the end of 3. BG didn't do anything spectacular to change the momentum of the game, nor did he play terrible and contribute to it getting worse. He was pretty much par for the course.

But if we expect him to make a bigger impact, he needs to be playing to start the game and to start the third. I always thought it was ridiculous last year that the Duhon crew would often let leads spiral out of control and then Gordon would be expected to come in like some kind of hero with his hair on fire and just light it up, to get us back in a game.

[bullzman23]

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I'm just saying that he did not play well enough individually to overcome the fact that the rest of the team stunk. You want to give him credit for not playing as poorly as the rest of his teammates? Fine -- I'll give him credit for not playing as poorly as the other Bulls today. But does it really matter? It's not like he was able to take the team on his back and lead them to a win.

And I still don't think he played all that well. At no time did he get so hot from the field or make enough plays in a row that I thought the momentum of the game was going to change in Chicago's favor. At best, he was ok. He's certainly been a lot better in many other games this year than he was today.

Who here said that Gordon had a great game though? People are just saying he had a good game. When you have 25 points and 5 assists, I think that's a pretty fair statement.

Unless I missed something, people are saying Gordon played well whereas you're saying:

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Gordon sucked today, too...he doesn't get a pass.

To me that's just a ridiculous statement. Gordon definitely did not suck, did not play poorly, and did not play below average.

[bullzman23]

If we are expecting Ben Gordon to get the team back in the game or 'win it' for us then how about we put him in the starting lineup?

The Grizzlies had a 7 point lead at the break, and as per usual with an inept offensive lineup, their lead had creeped up to 10 already before Boylan rushed Gordon back in with the emergency sub at 7:52.

Ben finished the third with 14 points about right on his normal scoring pace, but the Bulls never got close again and were still trailing by 12 at the end of 3. BG didn't do anything spectacular to change the momentum of the game, nor did he play terrible and contribute to it getting worse. He was pretty much par for the course.

But if we expect him to make a bigger impact, he needs to be playing to start the game and to start the third. I always thought it was ridiculous last year that the Duhon crew would often let leads spiral out of control and then Gordon would be expected to come in like some kind of hero with his hair on fire and just light it up, to get us back in a game.

Not only that, but our defense was terrible in that quarter. It seemed like whenever Gordon or Noce scored, the Grizzlies would respond with a three or with a dunk. Gordon should not be getting any negative attention for this game.

[Bull Shak]

So Gordon had a bad game because he didn't score 40 points?

[bullzman23]

So Gordon had a bad game because he didn't score 40 points?

I guess it's a back-handed compliment.

[Wingy]

Who gives a flying mother-**** about whether BG played a good game or not?

Are you fools kidding me? Oh my aching god, give it a rest!! It's ONE poster going against BG's game and about 6 of you complaining about it.

Who freaking cares?!? One poster. Be big enough to feel confident in what you already know and not have to argue about it for 4 pages.

This team has much bigger issues than Camp Kirk and Camp Gordon.

Both of them are above avg. players who are both flawed and neither will ever be even the #2 cog on a championship team.

All this pro-Kirk, hate-BG and vice versa makes me wanna puke.


/rant

[girlygirl]

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Be honest here. If Hinrich had 25 points and 5 assists, would you say Hinrich had a good game or that all of his teammates were worse?

Look Gordon delivered. His job is to score and he did that fairly well today. Right now his job is not to get six assists and five rebounds. It's simply to score. Despite what you say, the game was not over when he was getting his points. He wasn't out there for garbage minutes. He makes that missed layup, and he's suddenly shooting 45%. One miss is never the difference between a good and bad game.

If Kirk had had 25 (on 40% shooting) and 5 and the Bulls had still played as poorly as they did today, I hope I would be honest enough to say that he still didn't play well...but that his teammates were worse. I HOPE I'd be that honest with myself...but I can't say for sure. You might be right...I might have been going off on the board about how well he played and how it was too bad everyone else stunk. That would be sad...I'd like to believe I'm not that big an idiot or a hypocrite. (PS - the Bulls are 13-12 all-time when Kirk has 25+ pts and 5+ assists in a game; they are 12-6 when BG puts up those same numbers. Whatever that shows...)

As for BG, you are right that his main role is to be a scorer. And 25 points should fulfill that role adequately. If the Bulls hadn't played like a load of you know what today, 25 points likely would have been good enough to get a win.

But I would like to think that that shouldn't be his only role. He needs to be more of an all-around player -- not just for his own sake/future value, but for the team's. I wonder -- would he be more valuable as a 19 PPG, 5 APG guy who shoots, say 45% from the floor, gets to the FT line 6+ times per game and is a good defender, or as a 22 PPG, 2.5 APG guy who shoots, say 42% from the floor and gets to the FT line around 3-4 times per game and is no better than an average defender who rarely gets steals?

[bre9]

LEAVE GIRLYGIRL ALONE! ANYONE WHO WANTS TO DEAL WITH HER HAS TO GO THROUGH ME!

seriously though although I didn't watch the game I don't think 8/19 is anything to run home with. And since Gordon is touted as a game-changer, clutch player, yadayadayada, where were the game changing heroics? We had the lead down to 9 with 4 minutes left. It's Gordon time. Call for the ball. Get open. Beat your man off the dribble. Drive to the hoop. Whatever.

To me the game just looked like an opportunity for him to inflate his stats but in reality did nothing for the team's efforts. 25 for Gordon is small change when we all know he's capable of dropping 40, especially when you consider that with the exception of Miller there were puny guards that he could have completely harrassed.

This was a crappy Memphis team. He should have been abusing Conley and Lowry.

Gordon got to the line six times. If this were a great game for him he would have gone to the line 13-15 times.

That's all I think girlygirl is trying to say here. He's capable of doing much more, and if he was truly hellbent on getting his team the W he would have shown all of that.

Now the Orlando game? That was what I call Gordon giving it his all. But this is not close. This is a "typical" game for Ben. Nothing more nothing less. Move on.

How the hell is Gordon going to be a game changer when he comes in the at the 4 mark and team is down 10 to 12 points already( same with the Orlando game). And the team's already playing like crap. He shared the ball today. Why wouldn't he score in the 4th qtr that's where gets most of his minutes. I'll take a 25/5/3 8-20 shooting 6-6 ft in 31 minutes. That's a good game. Scoring 40 points from one player is bad it's a TEAM sport.

[Rerisen]

At some point after these losses, are we going to stop cannibalizing the various members of the core that people root for/against?

They are not the only problem with this team. In a larger sense, they have definitely prevented the Bulls from achieving expectations this year. Talking about BG, Kirk and Deng.

But tonight our starting bigs combined for 9 points! And their backups (TT and Noah) also combined for 9 points! Total those 4 shot 8-23. These are supposed to be your high percentage players.

Even on a night where Gasol hardly did anything, Memphis got 35 out of Pau, Darko, Warrick, Swift.

[bre9]

At some point after these losses, are we going to stop cannibalizing the various members of the core that people root for/against?

They are not the only problem with this team. In a larger sense, they have definitely prevented the Bulls from achieving expectations this year. Talking about BG, Kirk and Deng.

But tonight our starting frontcourt combined for 9 points! And their backups (TT and Noah) also combined for 9 points! Total those 4 shot 8-23. These are supposed to be your high percentage players.

Even on a night where Gasol hardly did anything, Memphis got 35 out of Pau, Darko, Warrick, Swift.

Agreed the front court was awful everytime I looked around Swift or Warrick were dunking all over Wallace, Noah, and Smith. Pau Gasol abused Noah all night too. 9 points from are two starting froncourt is bad.

[bullzman23]

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If Kirk had had 25 (on 40% shooting) and 5 and the Bulls had still played as poorly as they did today, I hope I would be honest enough to say that he still didn't play well...but that his teammates were worse. I HOPE I'd be that honest with myself...but I can't say for sure. You might be right...I might have been going off on the board about how well he played and how it was too bad everyone else stunk. That would be sad...I'd like to believe I'm not that big an idiot or a hypocrite. (PS - the Bulls are 13-12 all-time when Kirk has 25+ pts and 5+ assists in a game; they are 12-6 when BG puts up those same numbers. Whatever that shows...)

I appreciate your honesty.

But I would like to think that that shouldn't be his only role. He needs to be more of an all-around player -- not just for his own sake/future value, but for the team's. I wonder -- would he be more valuable as a 19 PPG, 5 APG guy who shoots, say 45% from the floor, gets to the FT line 6+ times per game and is a good defender, or as a 22 PPG, 2.5 APG guy who shoots, say 42% from the floor and gets to the FT line around 3-4 times per game and is no better than an average defender who rarely gets steals?

I agree. I wan't him to expand his game as well. He needs to get to the line more and get more assists. That's why people are saying that we try and develop him as a point guard. He's good now, but he's flawed and one dimensional. Taking him out of his element (where he's asked to score and do nothing else) will force him to expand his game. The way you develop people/players is by giving them more responsibility. If Gordon is in a role where he has to get everyone involved then he'll learn to do it better. There'll be plenty of headaches down the road, but it'd at least optimize his talents. Even if it ultimately fails, it would at least expand his game and hopefully improve his vision some what for when he returns to the two.

I hate it when Boylan takes Gordon out of the fourth and replaces him with Duhon for defense. Obviously Duh, is a better defender, but that's basically telling Gordon that he's a bad defender and there's no hope of him getting better. It's also essentially saying that Gordon is a bad defender, but it's ok because Duhon will make up for it. We don't want that crutch. If we lose a game because Gordon is playing lazy defense, then we should make him feel guilty about it and have him learn from his mistakes. We should put Gordon out there in critical situations and hope that he develops into a better defender. He has improved on the defensive end each season.

[Bull Shak]

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I guess it's a back-handed compliment.

Well it was said that Gordon had to score enough to beat the Grizz for this to be considered a good game.

So Gordon needed to make 7 more shots, with one being a three.

So a good game for Gordon would have been 40 points on 16-19 shooting, 6-6 FT.

So Gordon needs to shoot 92.4 TS% to have a good game. So Gordon has to pretty much be the GOAT to have a good game under these guy's standards.