TRADE EVERYBODY BUT KEEP GORDON/NOAH

[Dr. Lechter]

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You know what though. Ben Gordon 6th man or not. 6'0 or not, is a game changer and a go-to type guy you can have at the end of the game who will and has proven that he can make the tough shots. There are only about 5 guys in the league that can do that and he is one of them.

Ben Gordon is a silent assassin. The man is tough as nails, he just needs another player than can be 1/10 as dangerous as he is.

If you watch every game. The opposite coach is always saying "We have to contain Gordon and make sure he doesn't explode on us".. This is what they all say at halftime. They're scared of Gordon and they plan their entire defensive game plan trying to contain/stop him.

I love Ben.

I pretty much disagree Topper. I agree that Gordon has ability but he also has horrible shot selection and the TO issue has been debated to death. He can score, but he's a liabilty on defense.

As for him being one of the five guys you go to at the end of a game. . .I think that's overstating it alot. Here is a quick list of guys I would want to have hold the ball at the end of a game before Gordon (in no particular order):

Kobe
Wade
AI
Duncan
Rasheed
Billups
Arenas
Nowitzki
Nash
Kidd
Garnett
Gasol
Baron Davis
Paul Pierce
Dwight Howard
do I have to go on?

My point is not to bash Gordon, because I agree with your assertion that the other coach is definitely focusing on Gordon at the end of the game, but that doesn't elevate him to an elite NBA player.

I would frankly trade him and be happy to do it if I got good value. I would even trade package him with another player and give up a little if it gives me a piece I need and can't get anywhere else.

[Dr. Lechter]

double post deleted.

[tyrissius]

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If you watch every game. The opposite coach is always saying "We have to contain Gordon and make sure he doesn't explode on us".. This is what they all say at halftime. They're scared of Gordon and they plan their entire defensive game plan trying to contain/stop him.

I love Ben.

there are 30 teams in the league.
ben gordon is our top scorer. he is 31st in the league.

if they shut him down, our 2nd best is deng.. 49th in the league.

odds are they have 2 better scorers than deng, so thats why coaches say that... plus im sure they smile whenever nocioni chucks one up

[The 6ft Hurdle]

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You know what though. Ben Gordon 6th man or not. 6'0 or not, is a game changer and a go-to type guy you can have at the end of the game who will and has proven that he can make the tough shots. There are only about 5 guys in the league that can do that and he is one of them.

Ben Gordon is a silent assassin. The man is tough as nails, he just needs another player than can be 1/10 as dangerous as he is.

If you watch every game. The opposite coach is always saying "We have to contain Gordon and make sure he doesn't explode on us".. This is what they all say at halftime. They're scared of Gordon and they plan their entire defensive game plan trying to contain/stop him.

I love Ben.

I pretty much disagree Topper. I agree that Gordon has ability but he also has horrible shot selection and the TO issue has been debated to death. He can score, but he's a liabilty on defense.

As for him being one of the five guys you go to at the end of a game. . .I think that's overstating it alot. Here is a quick list of guys I would want to have hold the ball at the end of a game before Gordon (in no particular order):

Kobe
Wade
AI
Duncan
Rasheed
Billups
Arenas
Nowitzki
Nash
Kidd
Garnett
Gasol
Baron Davis
Paul Pierce
Dwight Howard
do I have to go on?

My point is not to bash Gordon, because I agree with your assertion that the other coach is definitely focusing on Gordon at the end of the game, but that doesn't elevate him to an elite NBA player.

I would frankly trade him and be happy to do it if I got good value. I would even trade package him with another player and give up a little if it gives me a piece I need and can't get anywhere else.

Horrible shot selection? That's overstating or possibly just lazy labeling of ability; lumping him into this category of undersized, Vinnie Johnson-like novelty. He has bad shooting games, but he doesn't go on chucking like Nocioni.

Maybe he's not an elite NBA player, but he does have an elite ability to finish games and/or at least score in bunches.

Can't disagree with the bulk of your list outside of Gasol, Sheed, and Kidd, but of that list Ben Gordon is the best 3-point shooter and based on some clutch time statistics actually probably is a top 5 performer in scoring.

Here are some of the clutch time stats of some players.

Lend your attention to the "scoring" sections.

Kobe's really the only one who even close and actually surpasses Gordon (and by a wide margin too).

http://www.82games.com/0708/07DET1E.HTM - Billups

http://www.82games.com/0708/07DET14E.HTM - R.Wallace

http://www.82games.com/0708/07MIA4E.HTM - Wade

http://www.82games.com/0708/07LAL7E.HTM - Bryant

http://www.82games.com/0708/07BOS6E.HTM - Pierce

http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO1E.HTM - Nash

http://www.82games.com/0708/07POR5E.HTM - Roy

http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN3E.HTM - AI

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI3D.HTM - Gordon

there are 30 teams in the league.
ben gordon is our top scorer. he is 31st in the league.

if they shut him down, our 2nd best is deng.. 49th in the league.

odds are they have 2 better scorers than deng, so thats why coaches say that... plus im sure they smile whenever nocioni chucks one up

Yeah, I'm sure Don Nelson was checking with his statistician about up-to-date scoring averages before he was cleared to make statements about keeping Gordon in check.

[Dr. Lechter]

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Yeah, I'm sure Don Nelson was checking with his statistician about up-to-date scoring averages before he was cleared to make statements about keeping Gordon in check.

6th,

I can't see how you could possibly evaluate Gordon's shot selection as good. Are you? You call my assessment lazy, what would you call your assessment if you call his shot selection good?

In terms of my list (and I didn't complete it, I could probably tack on 15 or more names I would rather have the ball than Gordon when it mattered and all of those names would be hard to argue with too), I took in other factors, such as creating an opportunity to score (ala Kidd) or size (Gasol--and his passing ability). My point is that Gordon is simply nothing more than a complementary player. In the right place, he is a terrific complementary player. But he is not someone to build around.

We have to start thinking strategically again. It is more important to get the rare player and give up a little more talent overall to do so. If the players we have are easily gotten through the draft (and they are unless they're named Tyrus or Noah) we should consider trading and maybe losing some in overall talent in order to achieve a player you could not replace otherwise.

In the end, I would trade Gordon again and again and again if I got a strategic hole in this team filled.

[topper09]

[quote="Dr. Lechter"][/quote]

He has horrible shot selection sometimes because nobody on the team can step up the take the shots !!!! I'd rather have Ben take those shots than Nocioni, Deng, Hinrich or any other Bulls player on this team.

[tyrissius]

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Yeah, I'm sure Don Nelson was checking with his statistician about up-to-date scoring averages before he was cleared to make statements about keeping Gordon in check.

how many statisticians do you need to realize that you dont need to guard nocioni, kirk, wallace, duhon? and deng hasnt showed the ability to make buckets at a good clip

[DuckIII]

Gordon is playing well again. I'm happy with him now. He's back. But I'd point something out here regarding opposing coaches and what they say about Gordon.

Naturally every opposing coach is going to be primarily concerned about Gordon going off. He's the only Bull that can explosively score in huge bunches. It should always be a concern.

Fortunately for many of those coaches, though, he doesn't do it consistently and their concerns are relieved. And thats the difference between being worried about Gordon and being worried about the sundry other offensive threats in this league who do it with regularity.

[The 6ft Hurdle]

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6th,

I can't see how you could possibly evaluate Gordon's shot selection as good. Are you? You call my assessment lazy, what would you call your assessment if you call his shot selection good?

I don't see you can call it "bad." When you say bad shot selection, you seem to be implying that he's a chucker. He takes tough shots, but he makes them enough so it's not a bad shot for him. For a weekend baller packing on some weekend pounds, the off-the screen jumpshot would probably be a terrible shot, but not so for BG. If you mean to say that he needs to drive in more and take closer shots, then I would agree.

In terms of my list (and I didn't complete it, I could probably tack on 15 or more names I would rather have the ball than Gordon when it mattered and all of those names would be hard to argue with too), I took in other factors, such as creating an opportunity to score (ala Kidd) or size (Gasol--and his passing ability). My point is that Gordon is simply nothing more than a complementary player. In the right place, he is a terrific complementary player. But he is not someone to build around.

You could tack on as many names as you want. It's your opinion. The problem is that you can't really prove it.

With what proof we do have, we have a "complementary player" who scores more than anyone else in the clutch sans...Kobe.

What does that make those other players?

Without his "complementary" abilities, we'd probably have only half our current win total if that.

We have to start thinking strategically again. It is more important to get the rare player and give up a little more talent overall to do so. If the players we have are easily gotten through the draft (and they are unless they're named Tyrus or Noah) we should consider trading and maybe losing some in overall talent in order to achieve a player you could not replace otherwise.

In the end, I would trade Gordon again and again and again if I got a strategic hole in this team filled.

Irony. If we go by this, then Gordon has a rare ability to string together points and make tough shots. That's a pretty rare and valuable ability right?

I don't think he's everything we need to answer the equation, but I think his abilities are not as replaceable as you think and they actually do come in handy...particularly when it comes to that dastardly task of putting the ball in the hoop.


[quote=tyrusis]
how many statisticians do you need to realize that you dont need to guard nocioni, kirk, wallace, duhon? and deng hasnt showed the ability to make buckets at a good clip[/quote]
I know that at least Donny in the Golden State could've said other things and NOT focused on Gordon.

In that halftime interview responding to the open question of "what do you need to do in the 2nd half", he could've kept the focus on his team and said..."we need to score 100 points (something he mentioned in pregame), we just need to play more uptempo, we need to make our shots (which is how they won anyway)."

Instead, he said, "we need to stop Gordon."