Around the NBA 1/21

Sigra · Post #21 » by **Sigra** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:17 pm

I loved Blake because I hoped that he will play defense, hit open shots, play under controll and be humble enough to not dribble all day long. I thought that he could be great fit with that Bucks team. Unfortunatly Stotts didn't agree.

But Blake is not guy who will make his teamates better. Daron Williams is.

europa · Post #22 » by **europa** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:20 pm

You've talked up Blake as being a great PG. If he's a great PG than Randolph should not have shot so poorly for his position when they were teammates.

Unless, of course, Randolph is just a poor FG% for position regardless of who his PG is.

Crazy thought I realize.

Sigra · Post #23 » by **Sigra** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:27 pm

europa wrote:You've talked up Blake as being a great PG.

So now you become lier? I never said that Blake is great PG. That is lie. I just loved how good fit he could be with Bogut and Redd in starting lineup. I said from begining that it is not going to work if he doesn't start. I said that he doesn't create for others and that his value is if he play with starters. I never said that he is great PG. Not even close. But I was suprised how much hate he recived even before he played his first game.

europa · Post #24 » by **europa** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:30 pm

Sigra wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

So now you become lier? I never said that Blake is great PG. That is lie. I just loved how good fit he could be with Bogut and Redd in starting lineup. I said from begining that it is not going to work if he doesn't start. I said that he doesn't create for others and that his value is if he play with starters. I never said that he is great PG. Not even close. But I was suprised how much hate he recived even before he played his first game.

I'm not a liar, Ilhan. I'm merely pointing out that you have raved and raved about Blake, which is correct. And now you're saying Randolph has never played with a good PG. Well by your estimation Blake falls into that category and the two of them were teammates.

The bottom line here is whether you want to admit it or not, Zach Randolph is a weak FG% shooter for his position. That's the deal and there are several seasons of proven production that prove this point conclusively.

Sigra · Post #25 » by **Sigra** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:36 pm

My point is not that Zack is very good. He is not. My point is that Boozer is not much better. I would like to see Zack with Daron at PG. Blake is role player who I thought would be great fit with OUR players. I never said that Blake is on level of Daron Williams. If I did I would kill myself. And if you now want to say that Zack ever played with PG nearly as good as Williams than you should kill yourself too.

europa · Post #26 » by **europa** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:39 pm

Boozer is MUCH better than Randolph, Ilhan. Boozer shot 54% with the Cavs when their PGs were guys like Dajuan Wagner and Smush Parker. So your theory holds no water. Boozer is a great FG% shooter period. He hasn't needed a great PG to make him into one. He's always been one.

And I'll refrain from killing myself if it's all the same to you.

Sigra · Post #27 » by **Sigra** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:56 pm

europa wrote:Boozer shot 54% with the Cavs when their PGs were guys like Dajuan Wagner and Smush Parker. So your theory holds no water.

His rookie season was 2002-03. He shot .536% but he did that while scoring 10.0 PPG so forgive me if I am not impressed. That Boozer was rookie who used double teams on Z and scored on put backs. When you score only 10 PPG it is easy to have good FG%.

In his 2nd season (2003-04) he got LeBron. You are the first who should know that LeBron is actually playmaker in that team. So there you go.

He played his third season in Utah. But Daron Williams was still not there. That year Boozer had worst FG% in his career. He also played only 51 games.

And then Daron signed his rookie contract with Jazz. Things were never same again for Carlos and he become star.

But like I said, it is not just PG. Boozer also has perfect C for any inside player. Okur shoot 3s and open space for Boozer. (in Cavs he had Z to shoot from mid range and open space as well)

It would be mistake to underestimate influence of great playmakers to inside players. Or to underestimate influence of C who can open space.

europa · Post #28 » by **europa** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:59 pm

Ilhan, I'm the last person who would underestimate the value of a strong PG. I've talked about that repeatedly over the years. The fact is, however, that Carlos Boozer has been a great FG% shooter his entire career regardless of who his PG has been. The fact that 52% shooting is his career worst speaks volumes about how good he is.

Has Deron Williams helped Boozer? Of course. A great PG helps everybody.

But Boozer would be a great FG shooter even if Williams was gone. That's part of his talent and ability and his historical production has proven conclusively he doesn't need a strong PG to shoot a very high percentage from the field.

Simulack · Post #29 » by **Simulack** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:08 pm

While there is obviously a big difference betwee Boozer and Randolph in terms of offensive efficiency and off-the court/attitude questions (Boozer also has a better contract), I do think its sort of an interesting comparison.

How much better are the Knicks if they have Boozer instead of Randolph?

How much worse are the Jazz if they have Randolph instead of Boozer?

Totally hypothetical and hard to answer... There is clearly a difference there but I'm not sure its as large as the perception which is that Boozer is a top NBA PF and that Randolph has negative value.

I do think context matters here since Boozer has had the good fortunte to play on teams with Lebron then stacked Jazz teams for most of his career. Randolph's been on dysfunctional Portland and Knicks teams (although he was admittedly part of that very problem).

Some of his flaws might not be so glaring if he had ended up surrounded by different teammates.

Sigra · Post #30 » by **Sigra** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:08 pm

europa wrote:his historical production has proven conclusively he doesn't need a strong PG to shoot a very high percentage from the field.

He needs Daron Williams or Lebron James or he needs to shot 7.6 FGA (his rookie season) in order to have high percentage for entire season. That's what history learned us about Carlos.

He is still better than Zack but not that much and I would REALLY love to see Zack with Lebron or Daron Williams.

europa · Post #31 » by **europa** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:09 pm

And people call me stubborn. Wow.

DH34Phan · Post #32 » by **DH34Phan** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:38 pm

Simulack wrote:I do think context matters here since Boozer has had the good fortunte to play on teams with Lebron then stacked Jazz teams for most of his career. Randolph's been on dysfunctional Portland and Knicks teams (although he was admittedly part of that very problem).

Some of his flaws might not be so glaring if he had ended up surrounded by different teammates.

Exactly. Zach Randolph, after the 2003-04 season, has played on some of the worst assembled teams in the NBA. Did he make the situation better? Probably not, but to act as though he brought down championship, or even playoff contenders is wrong.

I am gonna stay away from the Boozer comparison for now. David West to me fits the bill better, and the New Orleans team is a good comparison. Would David West make those Portland, or this New York team better? Would Zach be better with Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler around him?

I am not sure, but I would rather try to get our Paul/West/Chandler in (Collison, Augustin)/Randolph/Bogut, then try to make things work around our current backcourt.