The short bench

[evildallas]

In the preseason a lot of people commented on our strong depth. After the Portland game, some people commented about how few players are getting PT. I think the reason is simple. Mike Woodson is fighting for his job and not willing to take chances to leave a guy he doesn't trust out there to find his stride. He's shrunk the bench like teams do at playoff time. If you aren't in the core group then you've got a very short leash (just ask Zaza) if you get off the bench at all.

Consider:
Zaza 11 minutes
Solomon 29 minutes
Shelden 55 minutes
Lo Wright 58 minutes
Mario 34 minutes
Salim 0 minutes

That's how many minutes each player has played during the 10 games in January. I wouldn't expect a change in PT any time soon.

[tbhawksfan]

It would be so nice to have a coach that knows how to scheme and create and exploit his players advantages. We are a deep team. Woody is a downer. He's holding this team back.

Imagine these Hawks with a bright coach.

[killbuckner]

No question that Woodson is trying to do everything he can to make the playoffs this season. I am not sure its just on Woodson though- I think thats also what the fans and the organization overall wants to happen this season. Generally for young teams if its a disappointing season then there is at least a high draftpick to make the fans happy about. For the hawks the higher that pick is the worse the organization looks.

And I still think the lack of a PG and the lack of a true postgame woudl make any coach look bad. You put Andre MIller on this team and Suddenly I think that Woodson would look a whole lot smarter.

[Rip2137]

I am all for him wanting to make the playoffs. Fine.

So why does he bring in Tyronne Lue...ever. Why is he putting a small forward on point and shooting guards late in the 4th quarter when he has a good defender in Law and a great defender in West right there.

He doesn't even do offense/defense subs.

Why doesn't he play Solomon more than any other big. The guy ALWAYS has a positive result on something. He is active, the other bigs aren't. he can block or challenge shots, the other bigs don't. He doesn't help much on offense, but neither do the other bigs. What sane reason could there be to not play the kid?

And why in the hell doesn't he just use West, and Solo just to inject energy into the game. Why doesn't he EVER use Salim to spread the court. I am going to get the "he can't shoot" answer, but realistically, when you are a shooter on a very very VERY VERY VERY VERY short leash, you aren't going to shoot a high percentage. When he knew he HAD to play at the end of last year and wouldn't get pulled, his shooting numbers went from poor to great.

You can keep saying lack of a PG, well, he had one playing great yesterday. And he played 19 minutes. That is a coaching problem.

He STILL can't sub worth a damn and that is killing us more than him telling the team to pull it back when we have a lead.

[killbuckner]

I am fine with Woodson being fired just becuase it will stop people here from thinking that he is the problem. People are going to keep ignoring the glaring weaknesses on this team as long as they think the problem is Woodson. No coach who wants to make the playoffs would play Salim or Solomon significant minutes because they simply aren't good enough. I am just ready for everyone here to see some other coach try and run an offense with no PG and no post game so that people will finally see that the problem is BK and not the coaches.

[conleyorbust]

Yeah, I have been HUGELY dissappointed in Shelden and Zaza this season. Our backup big man situation has been, by far, the most troubling thing for me this season. I knew what the deal was with our point guards as soon as Speedy called it quits for the season again, so that didn't suprise me. I thought that we were going to be a very strong frontcourt though, take out Josh or Al and you have a tough rebounder in Shel or an effective scorer in Zaza. I thought Shel would be able to come in for 20 minutes a game and go for 5 and 5 and that Zaza would be able to come in and draw some fouls and get to the rim so the opposing bigs would be in foul trouble. What has happened has been our second unit gets massively outrebounded and wastes about 7 shots in 13 minutes.

I don't know who to blame but just look at boxscores of close games and you can see how much this hurts us.

[Rip2137]

And I need for you to watch and see the horrible schemes, simplistic bad decision making and poor use of personel that Woodson uses.

Salim Stoudimire is a more talented, better passing, better defending Eddie House, who has spent the last 3-4 years getting good minutes with winning, playoff teams because all of their coaches realized how to use him. He is also a better everything Damon Jones who is getting more and more minutes in Cleveland, and they went to the Finals. On top of that, San Antonio uses Brent Barry who offers nothing but shooting to the team. There are designated shooters all over the league and Salim like players are being useful.

Solomon Jones gives you the same energy and rawness that Anderson Varajo gave Cleveland two years ago. There is no reason not to use him more.

Cleveland has no real point guard and no real post up game. Phoenix has no real post up game. Portland has no real post up game. Chicago last year had no post up game and no real point guard (please don't call Kirk Hinrich a real point...please).

Denver doesn't have a real point and doesn't have a real post up game. The Lakers didn't have a real point guard or post up game last year.

New Orleans doesn't have a real post up game. Dallas doesn't have a real post up game and only recently have started using a real point guard.

All of these teams have won, or are winning and are in the playoffs or were in the playoffs.

You say no coach could make the playoffs giving these type of players minutes? Except that most teams in the playoffs have players doing exactly what our bench players can do. Brian Skinner is nothing more than a shotblocking energy guy in phoenix that goes after every rebound. Franciso Elson is different from Solo how?


Right now he is playing 8 guys and one of them should never touch the court (lue)

A rotation of AJ(or Law), Childress, Salim, Solo, and Mario West would help this team. Not at the same time or anything, but have them come in, know they are going to get minutes.

Solo and Mario, you KNOW offer energy and hustle, two things that every playoff team is getting from some players. The Hawks get it from Josh Smith and Al Horford and they are getting into foul trouble being the only guys trying to do it.

Mike Woodson is probably a great guy and has done a good job developing these young players, but he is just a horrible coach and still, after all these years, sucks at making good gameplans, and getting a working rotation, and making in game adjustments. You can blame BK all you want to, but a good coach would have this team in the playoffs easily.

[JoshB914]

We jsut aren't good enough. We are in a fight for our playoff lives right now. WE can't take chances on rookies, streaky shooters (to say the least), and the like. A lot of us kind of laughed at those who said we had a deep team before teh season. We never have and still don't. What sucks is that Zaza has regressed, Salim is still Salim, Speedy is finished, and Sheden is a waste. Not one of those guys improved their game. That is where I would point to coaching as our role players have not developed.

HOWEVER, we are not good enough right now to go around blaming Woody. How many of these great scheming coaches are out there that could actually turn this roster into an easy playoff qualifier? McMillan, Johnson, Jackson, Pop, D'Antoni, and maybe SVG. They aren't coming to here so we might as well stick with what we have.

The NBA isn't like the NFL where you can win with great schemes and discipline. You need good players to be a good team. We don't have enough good players to blame Woody for all our problems. If you ask me, some peple are just having trouble admitting that we aren't very good and using Woody as a scapegoat.

[conleyorbust]

We jsut aren't good enough. We are in a fight for our playoff lives right now. WE can't take chances on rookies, streaky shooters (to say the least), and the like. A lot of us kind of laughed at those who said we had a deep team before teh season. We never have and still don't. What sucks is that Zaza has regressed, Salim is still Salim, Speedy is finished, and Sheden is a waste. Not one of those guys improved their game. That is where I would point to coaching as our role players have not developed.

We never had a great bench but if Zaza and Shelden could play near the levels they are capable of, we would have a strength our frontcourt depth and versatility instead of a MASSIVE weakness. In games where Josh's shots aren't going in it would be nice to have Zaza come in and be a consistent scoring threat. In games where Al gets Himself in foul trouble, it would be huge if Shel could come in and pick up where Al left off on the boards. It just ain't happening though. Right now, we are totally dependant on Josh and Al.

[AU hawksfan]

What sucks is that Zaza has regressed, Salim is still Salim, Speedy is finished, and Sheden is a waste. Not one of those guys improved their game.

I agree. I think a lot of us overestimated our bench's production coming into the season. A lot happened since then. With these four players not giving us anything, our depth has taken a big hit. I think we were all hoping Joe would at least get a little more rest with this depth, but of course his minutes are exactly the same as last year.

[JoshB914]

Really the big shocker this season has been JJ, not the bench. He is having the worst season of his career by far. You've got to think if he's just playing okay by his standards (shooting % around 44) we're over .500 right now.

[Rip2137]

We jsut aren't good enough. We are in a fight for our playoff lives right now. WE can't take chances on rookies, streaky shooters (to say the least), and the like. A lot of us kind of laughed at those who said we had a deep team before teh season. We never have and still don't. What sucks is that Zaza has regressed, Salim is still Salim, Speedy is finished, and Sheden is a waste. Not one of those guys improved their game. That is where I would point to coaching as our role players have not developed.

HOWEVER, we are not good enough right now to go around blaming Woody. How many of these great scheming coaches are out there that could actually turn this roster into an easy playoff qualifier? McMillan, Johnson, Jackson, Pop, D'Antoni, and maybe SVG. They aren't coming to here so we might as well stick with what we have.

The NBA isn't like the NFL where you can win with great schemes and discipline. You need good players to be a good team. We don't have enough good players to blame Woody for all our problems. If you ask me, some peple are just having trouble admitting that we aren't very good and using Woody as a scapegoat.

[Rip2137]

That was weird...i am not typing that again...

[smabie]

The Hawks have an incredibly deep bench (whether you like how well certain players play or not), and Woodson /does/ use them.

The problem is that he doesn't use them consistently, or with any rhyme or reason, other than Childress.

For example, in the month of January (10 games):

Tyronn Lue has played 10-15 minutes in 5 games; less than 5 minutes in 2 games; and not at all in 2 games. And 20+ in the Portland game (with AJ suspended).

Acie Law has played 20+ minutes three times (note: NOT during the Portland game), 15-20 three times, and 5-10 minutes twice.

Mario West has played 10-15 minutes twice (3 assists each time, mind you), 1-5 minutes twice, not played twice, and has been in for less than 24 seconds 4 times.

I'd not mention Salim at all, except did you realize that he's had 4 games where he scored double-digit points? Or that in the last game he's played in (the last game in Detroit), he played for 10+ minutes but had only 1 shot attempt?

On the other end of the spectrum, Lo Wright has played 22 minutes once, 12 once, 5-7 three times, 2 minutes once, and sat in 4 games. The 22 minute game: 0/3, 8 Reb (1 Off), 1 Blk, 4 PFs.

Shelden has played 25 minutes once (0/3, 7 Rebs, 1 TO, 1 PF), 11 minutes twice, 4 once, 1 once, and sat in 5 games.

Zaza: sat in 7 games, less than 5 twice, 8 once (coincidently, the game he's being suspended for).

Solo: 18 minutes once (2/6, 7 Rebs, 4 PFs), sat in 6 games (5 before the 18 minute game), 1-5 minutes twice, half a minute once.

----

Point in all this: Nobody's being played consistently. Most aren't playing almost every game. And even when they do have a breakout game (Solo), they don't get any measurable reward for it. Instead, they're as likely to DNP/CD the next game as not.

I can understand not playing everyone. Them's the breaks. But the Hawks have a long bench that throughout the season they have used. Just not in the same game.

For comparison, go to http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sas/roster and check out the playing times of the bench players for San Antonio. Consistent times. Everyone knows who's playing what, and time can be earned as a reward or taken away as a punishment. Even the guy they picked up in December as a 13th man gets used more regularly and consistently than the Hawks 8th man.

[JoshB914]

I think that's a very good point smab and haven't thought about that. But the reason I think it's happening is because our players coming off the bench aren't good. With Zaza's awful season we have to use our big men with matchups. Solo is too skinny to cover big bigs, Shelden is too short to cover some, and Lo is too slow to cover some.

Other than Chillz and Rio (I completely agree he deserves more PT) I don't see very established players. They've gotten plenty of chances and haven't done the job.

SA has consistent bench numbers because they have consistent players coming off the bench. Which has been a big reason for their success.

[smabie]

I think that's a very good point smab and haven't thought about that. But the reason I think it's happening is because our players coming off the bench aren't good.

SA has consistent bench numbers because they have consistent players coming off the bench. Which has been a big reason for their success.

You know, there was a player for the Hawks and Woodson that I thought this exact same thing about. A guy who was on their bench, who during his second season barely got played. In fact, he'd regressed from his (pre-Woodson) rookie season. When they threw him in as trade filler, I was happy as heck they'd gotten rid of the bum. And for a while, I considered us lucky to get rid of him. But the more I think about it, the moire I think that the guy who drafted him actually did know what he was doing, and the guy who coached him sucked.

That would be Boris Diaw, by the way, to whom I probably owe a laundry list of apologies for some of the things I've said about him in the past. Not that he's a star player, mind you -- I'm not saying anyone on the Hawks bench are star players (yet). But it seems more and more obvious to me that Woodson is in over his head, and has no clue what he's doing.

Say what you want about the Hawks bench players. But the facts are these: Woodson does play these guys, and has on occasion given them big minutes. But he's done it sporadically, without rhyme nor reason, and its no wonder that more often than not, when they do play those minutes, they fail to produce. Steve Smith explained it perfectly last night, with regard to Solo -- the only practice he gets is just that, practice. Here we are, halfway through the season, and half of our entire team is not being used properly or consistently, to where they can produce. So I will not say that Player X sucks, when Player X is a bench player for Mike Woodson, since they have no idea if the next minutes they're getting is that night, or some time next month. And when a player doesn't think/beluieve he's playing that night, he'll suck on the floor. And that's not their failing, that's the failing of Mike Woodson, and he needs to be fired.

I know its the mid-season, and that finding a new coach is tough, but so what. We're on a Playoff hunt this year. Failure to make the playoffs is a failure. BK needs to save his job by getting rid of Dead Wood Woodson, and either taking over the team himself for the remainder of the season (a la Don Waddell), and prove he knew what he was drafting, or promote one of those assistants who attempted to abandon ship the past couple years but got blocked by management. Give them their fair shot.

[killbuckner]

Actually thats an idea I can get behind. It was such a bush league move to tell those assistants they could look for other jobs and then block them- promoting one of them to head coach for the rest of the season would at least make up for it somewhat.