Noah?

HotelVitale · Post #41 » by **HotelVitale** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:14 pm

Hey, Bulls fan here giving you the perspective from the other side of the table. None of those deals would interest the Bulls b/c Noah is still mostly an unknown quantity and b/c he plays a position they need to find someone to play. Noah clearly has a lot of potential, but his timing is still off so he hasn't been able to play with his usual hustle and do the sorts of things he was great at in college. There's a good chance that his game never fully translates into the NBA, that he's not big or fast enough to make a difference, and that he becomes a back up center who can rebound, block some shots, and make some pretty passes every now and then but doesn't impact a game enough to have him be a reliable starter. (maybe something like Varejao)

But then there's a good possibility he figures out the speed and the spacing of the game and becomes a defensive force, a nice component of the offense, and a great teammate (something like Camby, minus the injuries). Every Bulls fan thinks he'll be effective, we're just not sure how effective. We'll have to wait 2-3 years to see.

On the other hand, you know what you're getting from Gomes (smart player, could be a nice 7th man on a playoff team), Smith (strong and sensible, but inconsistent and not much defensive impact against big players), and Telfair (third string pg), and none of them have Noah's potential impact. Even if Noah ends up as a bust, do Smith, Telfair, and Gomes get the Bulls closer to a title? Not at all--Nocioni's better than Gomes so he'd stay on the bench, Telfair would never see game action in December let alone May, and Smith doesn't seem like an upgrade over Ben Wallace or Tyrus so wouldn't play ahead of them.

From a Bulls perspective, it sounds like you're offering a bunch of guys who will never have much impact for a guy who could fit perfectly on our team. Plus we take on a bunch of salary, and we have to cut like 3 players. Why would anybody do that?

(for fantasy players, this would be like offering the two or three guys at the end of your bench (e.g. Jamario Moon and Jarrett Jack or Antoine Walker) for Randy Foye; you don't know what Foye's going to do, and there's a chance that he might not be that good or he'll never get over his injury, but you know for sure that the other guys just don't do that much, so why wouldn't you wait and see what Foye can do?)

Post #42 » by **C.lupus** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:30 pm

HotelVitale wrote:
On the other hand, you know what you're getting from Gomes (smart player, could be a nice 7th man on a playoff team), Smith (strong and sensible, but inconsistent and not much defensive impact against big players), and Telfair (third string pg), and none of them have Noah's potential impact. Even if Noah ends up as a bust, do Smith, Telfair, and Gomes get the Bulls closer to a title? Not at all--Nocioni's better than Gomes so he'd stay on the bench, Telfair would never see game action in December let alone May, and Smith doesn't seem like an upgrade over Ben Wallace or Tyrus so wouldn't play ahead of them.

From a Bulls perspective, it sounds like you're offering a bunch of guys who will never have much impact for a guy who could fit perfectly on our team. Plus we take on a bunch of salary, and we have to cut like 3 players. Why would anybody do that?

I can understand you not needing Telfair or Gomes but I think you are underestimating Smith a bit. True he isn't a good defensive player at this point but haven't the Bulls been needing a low post scorer for a few years now? Smith would give you that. He's great at throwing his body around and has a nice, soft touch around the basket. I think his inconsistencies are more a reflection of the team he is playing on. He plays well with a good PG and you guys have a pretty good one in Hinrich. Smith probably fits better in Chicago than in MN and Noah probably fits better in MN.

Green could give you some insurance in case you lose Gordon. You'd also be getting a protected first round pick as well with the Miami pick.

Post #43 » by **C.lupus** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:29 pm

I've been trying to think of a way to get Chicago to bite on a Noah trade. It seems a 3-way deal is the only way. So is this reasonable?

Chicago trades:
Tyrus Thomas
Joakim Noah
Joe Smith
2008 first

Chicago gets:
Pau Gasol

CHI trades away some youth but gets Gasol to fill their low post need

Memphis trades:
Pau Gasol

Memphis gets:
Tyrus Thomas
Craig Smith
Joe Smith (expiring)
CHI 2008 first
Miami's pick from MN

MEM gets 2 young PFs to play next to Darko, 2 first round picks, and a $5 m expiring.

MN trades:
Craig Smith
Miami's pick

MN gets:
Joakim Noah

MN gets a great center piece next to Al and Brewer's buddy.

dunkonu21 · Post #44 » by **dunkonu21** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:32 pm

Memphis would prolly need more than that...

Post #45 » by **C.lupus** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:50 pm

I wondered about that. We don't have much to offer other than financial flexibility. If we added Doleac for Cardinal (2 more years at about $6.5 m) would that be enough for them and would that be a deal breaker for us?

shrink · Post #46 » by **shrink** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:59 pm

C.lupus wrote:I've been trying to think of a way to get Chicago to bite on a Noah trade. It seems a 3-way deal is the only way.

I agree completely. If CHI is going to deal the guy, its going to be as part of a deal to bring in a star PF, and we aren't trading ours. Its a deal like yours, where we tag in providing alternative young assets, which I think is our only chance to aquire Noah.

SportsTalk radio today asked if Noah knew his place as a rookie, and that a couple college championships don't mean squat to NBA vets?

GopherIt! · Post #47 » by **GopherIt!** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:29 pm

"On the other hand, you know what you're getting from Gomes (smart player, could be a nice 7th man on a playoff team), Smith (strong and sensible, but inconsistent and not much defensive impact against big players), ...Nocioni's better than Gomes so he'd stay on the bench and Smith doesn't seem like an upgrade over Ben Wallace or Tyrus so wouldn't play ahead of them.

From a Bulls perspective, it sounds like you're offering a bunch of guys who will never have much impact for a guy who could fit perfectly on our team. Plus we take on a bunch of salary, and we have to cut like 3 players. Why would anybody do that?

(for fantasy players, this would be like offering the two or three guys at the end of your bench (e.g. Jamario Moon and Jarrett Jack or Antoine Walker) for Randy Foye; you don't know what Foye's going to do, and there's a chance that he might not be that good or he'll never get over his injury, but you know for sure that the other guys just don't do that much, so why wouldn't you wait and see what Foye can do?)"

If this is typical of what Bulls fans think they are a bunch of homers.

If they like Noah and value his defensive upside, fair enough.
But Noah is no Foye. Noah will never develop an offensive game despite what some Bulls homers say.

I tried to engage some Bulls fans on acquiring Smith. You'd think I was trying to sell them a Ford Exploder on bald Firestone's the way they responded. Sorry Dickie V, Gomes and Smith are NOT at the end of our bench. Gomes is starting right now. Gomes could totally be a fourth or fifth option on a good team. Smith could start for us if we didn't already have Big AL.

I would also not take Noce over Gomes, no way. I think the Bulls erred in giving him the money they did. Gomes and Smith are tweeners like Noce, yes, but they are also bigger and can score in the paint, a highly valuable commodity in the NBA. The Bulls have no one right now that can score in the paint. Joe Smith is their starting power forward right now. Joe freakin' Smith. And they can't figure out why they are headed for the lottery? I think this assessment of our players is 100% pure homerism on the part of HotelVitale and likeminded Bulls fans.

Devilzsidewalk · Post #48 » by **Devilzsidewalk** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:33 pm

yea Craig Smith isn't an end of bench player, he could start for some teams

plus I fast-forwarded my 2k8 franchise to get the low-down on what my future salaries would look like, and there was like 6 teams in free agency offering Craig Smith a starting opportunity, so there you go.

GopherIt! · Post #49 » by **GopherIt!** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:00 pm

2k8 is gospel

ChazzleDazzle · Post #50 » by **ChazzleDazzle** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:15 pm

How 'bout this? Addresses some of the concerns, ships a longer term contract and helps Chicago out with Deng out of the lineup for awhile... Based on the Chi/NJ rumors, but I think this deal is better for them both than the one mentioned... (#4431186)

Chicago Gives
Joachim Noah, Viktor Khryapa, Thabo Sefolosha, JamesOn Curry
Chicago Receives
Marcus Williams, Bostjan Nachbar, Gerald Green, Antoine Wright

New Jersey Gives
Marcus Williams, Bostjan Nachbar, Antoine Wright, Jason Collins
New Jersey Receives
Craig Smith, Thabo Sefolosha, Antoine Walker, JamesOn Curry, Minnesota

4ho5ive · Post #51 » by **4ho5ive** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:27 pm

Chicago would probably want Craigers for his offensive skill set. If we could get one of Marcus Williams or Thabo Sefolosha here I would consider it. Right now, I dont think that trade really makes anyone better.

shrink · Post #52 » by **shrink** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:35 pm

I'd do that one Chazzle. Interesting idea!

Post #53 » by **revprodeji** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:36 pm

make it th 2nd or Boston, not the Miami pick. That Miami pick will be sexy good in the future. That protection gets very light and Miami is in a black hole. We need to hold onto that pick.

also I believe we are unable to trade the Miami pick in the same way that LAC cannot trade our pick either.