We Need To Miss the Playoffs
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At least with the 2005-2006 club one could offer the excuse that they were still finding their way as a team.
What's their excuse this time.
Bring in Mayo to replace Duhon at the guard spot.
IF Gordon isn't sold long term on the idea of being the Bulls 6th man....then I'd look at a sleeper in the draft by the name of Courtney Lee (he's a senior by the way).
Lee's Strengths:
What's their excuse this time.
Bring in Mayo to replace Duhon at the guard spot.
IF Gordon isn't sold long term on the idea of being the Bulls 6th man....then I'd look at a sleeper in the draft by the name of Courtney Lee (he's a senior by the way).
Lee's Strengths:
Re: We Need To Miss the Playoffs
- DaBulls82
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Re: We Need To Miss the Playoffs
bullzman23 wrote:If it wasn't clear before, it should be clear now. I don't feel like writing anything long-winded so I'll just put up some bullet points.
If we miss the playoffs....
- We'll definitely replace Boylan. If we make it, he'll stay.
- Paxson will fall out of love with his players and make a trade. If we make them he'll come back with the same team.
- We'll get a better pick and a chance in the lottery. Drafts can be hit or miss, but with talent being such a serious question, we need to take our chances.
- The worse we get, the more likely Sefolosha, Thomas, and Noah replace Duhon, Wallace, and Smith in the lineup.
I'm down with points 1, 2, and 4. However, another pick isn't going to do this team any good. We suck at helping talent develop. We also suck at putting our guys in the best position to succeed.
Either way, Pax isn't going to turn on "tank" mode. He has to make sure his job is secure and that means trying to get this team into the playoffs. Unfortunately for us, the East is so weak it just might happen although we hardly deserve it.
14 years is a nice run but it's time to end the Paxson era.






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DanTown8587 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Go look at the champion teams of the last 25 years, and almost all of them had a pick in the top five and made it work.
Chicago-Jordan
San Antonio-Duncan
LA Lakers-Magic
Detroit (80s)-Isiah
Boston-Bird
Houston-Hakeem
Like I said... we will Not get a top 5 pick.
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I think the whole "tanking" idea is stupid. First, you get no guarantees, second, the sole idea of "getting worse to get better" has so many flaws I can't even start to mention them.
Now, for a change, what about this ridiculous idea: "getting better to get better"? It worked for 99% of NBA champions, maybe it could work for Bulls. In any case, I'd rather discuss what could be done to make the team better, not what could be done to make the team worse
Now, for a change, what about this ridiculous idea: "getting better to get better"? It worked for 99% of NBA champions, maybe it could work for Bulls. In any case, I'd rather discuss what could be done to make the team better, not what could be done to make the team worse

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fabio wrote:I think the whole "tanking" idea is stupid. First, you get no guarantees, second, the sole idea of "getting worse to get better" has so many flaws I can't even start to mention them.
Now, for a change, what about this ridiculous idea: "getting better to get better"? It worked for 99% of NBA champions, maybe it could work for Bulls. In any case, I'd rather discuss what could be done to make the team better, not what could be done to make the team worse
Right on. For example, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, O'Neil, Durant, Yao Ming, Anthony - to name just a few - all went to teams with mediocre seasons right? Those teams should have had better records so they could not get these players. Right?

Anyway, I'm not in favor of tanking, I'm in favor of getting better for the future, so I agree I guess in principle but not really the way you put it. I don't think Cleveland felt it was stupid tanking to get Lebron James.
Anyway, play the youngsters this year, get a real coach for next year. Wherever they land this year with the kids playing - so be it.
But no I'm not in favor of playing Duhon/Griffin/Wallace/Khryappa all 48 minutes so the Bulls lose every game - not at all.
Bill Walton wrote: Keep the music playing.
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fabio wrote:I think the whole "tanking" idea is stupid. First, you get no guarantees, second, the sole idea of "getting worse to get better" has so many flaws I can't even start to mention them.
Now, for a change, what about this ridiculous idea: "getting better to get better"? It worked for 99% of NBA champions, maybe it could work for Bulls. In any case, I'd rather discuss what could be done to make the team better, not what could be done to make the team worse
So discuss it then.
I just don't see how we get better unless we're pulling off some big trades. Paxson hasn't made a trade for years now. It's still unlikely that he'll make a major one, and at the moment Gasol seems to be the best guy who is available. I don't think he makes us significantly better.
If we make the playoffs without a roster change, I believe we ultimately hurt ourselves in the long run.
It's like the 2002 team that got hot at the end of the year to win 30 years. The progress seemed nice, but it robbed us of a chance to get Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh., etc. Let's not do it again.
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[quote="bullzman23"][/quote]
I have a couple fears about making the playoffs.
1) Boylan could stay.
2) The players could cling to making the playoffs and rationalize that they in fact had a good season. The season is not good, it's not acceptable. I don't want to hear "well at least we made the playoffs" from anyone.
Obviously if they were to make the playoffs, the play would improve, but they dug a huge hole, played horrible at times when it meant most, and have the interim even noticing the effort isn't there.
I agree with Bullzman, missing the playoffs should spark more urgency and hopefully get rid of Boylan.
Duck thinks Boylan is gone anyway, I hope so, but he works cheap and JR may push for him if they were to make the playoffs. I don't know. Would make me nervous.
I have a couple fears about making the playoffs.
1) Boylan could stay.
2) The players could cling to making the playoffs and rationalize that they in fact had a good season. The season is not good, it's not acceptable. I don't want to hear "well at least we made the playoffs" from anyone.
Obviously if they were to make the playoffs, the play would improve, but they dug a huge hole, played horrible at times when it meant most, and have the interim even noticing the effort isn't there.
I agree with Bullzman, missing the playoffs should spark more urgency and hopefully get rid of Boylan.
Duck thinks Boylan is gone anyway, I hope so, but he works cheap and JR may push for him if they were to make the playoffs. I don't know. Would make me nervous.
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kyrv wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I have a couple fears about making the playoffs.
1) Boylan could stay.
2) The players could cling to making the playoffs and rationalize that they in fact had a good season. The season is not good, it's not acceptable. I don't want to hear "well at least we made the playoffs" from anyone.
Obviously if they were to make the playoffs, the play would improve, but they dug a huge hole, played horrible at times when it meant most, and have the interim even noticing the effort isn't there.
I agree with Bullzman, missing the playoffs should spark more urgency and hopefully get rid of Boylan.
Duck thinks Boylan is gone anyway, I hope so, but he works cheap and JR may push for him if they were to make the playoffs. I don't know. Would make me nervous.
I just think making the playoffs would be like finding fool's gold. Management will find a way to convince themselves that this team is significantly better than they are and that outside factors (extension, Kobe, Skiles) hurt them early in the year. That may be true, but with such an awful collapse I think it's clear that this team has much bigger holes to fill than finding a tall guard and post presence. If they get shaken this easily by a hard coach, rumors, and contract negotiations then how are they going to react when they face real adversity in the playoffs? Why waste a season to confirm an answer that we probably already know?
Also, I just can't agree that Boylan will be gone if we make the playoffs. The only way that should happen is if we get embarrassed in first round of the playoffs. If we make the playoffs and put up a good fight then Boylan will have justified a second chance. You just can't fire someone if they've met the team's goals.. Another season of Boylan would hurt our team enormously.
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bullzman23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
So discuss it then.
I just don't see how we get better unless we're pulling off some big trades.
See? there you have part of the answer.
more options to add:
- concentrate on a core, define it, develop it, stick to it. You want the youngsters? so be it. you want the vets? so be it. a mix of both? there you go. Just stop the nonsensical back and forths.
- with this core, define who and what is needed. Gasol? Brand? what's teh benefit of getting some player and what is needed to give up to get it? the costs are higher or lower than the benefits?
- get a REAL coach. Personally, I'd get a top coach with a top FIBA coach as assistant.
- give securities to players. as long as they play, they get minutes. get rid of the moronics wasting time.
- create a "WIN" mystic instead of a "WHO CARES" or (even worse) "LET'S TANK AND NEXT YEAR WE'LL SEE. AND IF NOT, THE FOLLOWING YEAR. OR THE FOLLOWING. OR THE FOLLOWING. OR..."
- get rid of high contracts even if the payback looks worse and save the cap for a superstar.
Just some ideas, I'm sure other people will have more, and way better than "let's lose more games".
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I think the playoffs could install some kind of false hope into the coaching staff and organization, as if we finally got things back on track.. But really I think Paxson has seen enough to see that this team isn't as good as once thought, and that changes be it small or large need to be made.
I want to make the playoffs, we probably won't progress very far, if at all. Boylan IMO will probably be gone regardless, at one stage when Boylan was first appointed there probably was a strong possibility that if the playoffs were made coach would stay, but I think things have been so bad since with very little improvement that Pax will have no choice but to replace him.
I don't think I can stand missing the playoffs, even if it's one round then it's at least something.
I can only hope the staff will not be fooled into thinking that this team will be ok if they clinch a berth, I think there is far to much pressure on the organization not to make any changes.
I want to make the playoffs, we probably won't progress very far, if at all. Boylan IMO will probably be gone regardless, at one stage when Boylan was first appointed there probably was a strong possibility that if the playoffs were made coach would stay, but I think things have been so bad since with very little improvement that Pax will have no choice but to replace him.
I don't think I can stand missing the playoffs, even if it's one round then it's at least something.
I can only hope the staff will not be fooled into thinking that this team will be ok if they clinch a berth, I think there is far to much pressure on the organization not to make any changes.
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kyrv wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Right on. For example, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, O'Neil, Durant, Yao Ming, Anthony - to name just a few - all went to teams with mediocre seasons right?
all of them had a superstar caliber player or acquired one. the only exception is Cleveland and we still need to see what will happen (and I'm being cool and don't even mention Durant, Yao and Anthony who achieved NOTHING so far)
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fabio wrote:
See? there you have part of the answer.
Obviously if a big trade was available to us I'd prefer that, but it's unlikely, and it's hard to discuss something like that without any rumors
- concentrate on a core, define it, develop it, stick to it. You want the youngsters? so be it. you want the vets? so be it. a mix of both? there you go. Just stop the nonsensical back and forths.
I agree.
- with this core, define who and what is needed. Gasol? Brand? what's teh benefit of getting some player and what is needed to give up to get it? the costs are higher or lower than the benefits?
Right, but again, we can do all the defining we want but it doesn't matter unless one of these guys are actually available to us. I can see the logic in overpaying for Kobe, but not for Gasol. And Brand is a risky addition until we know how his knee will respond. I personally want to see us make a run at Richard Jefferson and Jose Calderon.
If someone becomes available near the deadline then I agree, it's worth considering. But, I wrote my post under the assumption that we won't make any significant changes.
- get a REAL coach. Personally, I'd get a top coach with a top FIBA coach as assistant.
But this simply won't happen now unless Boylan quits. Boylan is going to be here for the rest of the season unless something totally unexpected occurs.
- create a "WIN" mystic instead of a "WHO CARES" or (even worse) "LET'S TANK AND NEXT YEAR WE'LL SEE. AND IF NOT, THE FOLLOWING YEAR. OR THE FOLLOWING. OR THE FOLLOWING. OR..."
This sounds great but how can you do that mid-season? The tone has been set. Unless players wake up themselves or there is a major change I can't expect their attitudes to suddenly become positive. This is who they are for the moment. I think these big cultural changes take some time and usually require an offseason. Skiles started midseason by removing Eddie Robinson from the team. Even then we didn't really notice any substantial change in our attitude. I also don't think Boylan is the coach to get this attitude change done.
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get rid of high contracts even if the payback looks worse and save the cap for a superstar.
Won't this lead to tanking? I like this idea, but if you want to win now, I don't see how this helps us immediately.
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bullzman23 wrote:
I'm mentioning this as possibilities not as probabilities. Some of this possibilities need a previous one to happen, ie, the "mystic" one needs the "get a real coach" one as you point out.
I'll just stop on the last one, and there's no need to tank if done right. ie, we'd deal BW for somebody way cheaper that adds on some aspect. I'm convinced Noah and Gray are enough for the same (or even better) production than BW. Maybe Hinrich as long as you put BG in the starting lineup (which I think it should be done anyway). Those are teh biggest contracts right now. As much as I like Noc and consider him a fundamental part of a winning team, you'd also try Noc (I don't mean all 3 of them, just 2 out of 3). The cap space would leave room for a top-10 superstar.
Anyway, to make it clear: one thing is a team trying at full strength and losing. Nothing wrong about that. A very different thing is a team losing on purpose. That sends a totally wrong message, not to mention Colangelo spoke against the "tanking" and we'd expect some changes in the (near?) future.
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Yeah right. We're going to sit our best players with half the season left and they'll be ok with that. Gordon and Deng won't complain a bit. Then we're going to start losing every game to get a high pick. Stern won't notice this is happening and therefore won't fine us for it. The media will turn their heads like nothing is happening so there will be no big comotion. Let's get real!
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BobbyBulls wrote:Yeah right. We're going to sit our best players with half the season left and they'll be ok with that. Gordon and Deng won't complain a bit. Then we're going to start losing every game to get a high pick. Stern won't notice this is happening and therefore won't fine us for it. The media will turn their heads like nothing is happening so there will be no big comotion. Let's get real!
Where did I suggest this? In fact, I never even said the word tank. I just said we'd be better of missing the playoffs than making it.
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bullzman23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Where did I suggest this? In fact, I never even said the word tank. I just said we'd be better of missing the playoffs than making it.
The post is only directed at the ones thinking we should tank. But even if we miss the playoffs, it's probably not going to be by much so the pick will not be much different. I think we would have to tank to get a high pick. I guess you can hope we have injuries and we really stink it up for the rest of the year to get the high pick. I don't want to start hoping for injuries. I'd prefer making a trade now to balance the roster. I still have hope we can make noise if Pax can do this.
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suckfish wrote:I can only hope the staff will not be fooled into thinking that this team will be ok if they clinch a berth, I think there is far to much pressure on the organization not to make any changes.
I agree. Paxson's tendency to seemingly hedge in favor of what he has built under the slightest hint of progress has me worried. The team has had holes for several years now, and the sense is that Paxson has been nonchalant in his urgency to fill them. Rather that he has thought the development of the core would supersede or overcome many difficulties. I think the Bulls making the playoffs this year or not, might not even be up to us so much as how terrible the East is and other random events like injuries downgrading competing teams.
Then if we did squeak in and somehow put up a very competitive effort in losing to someone like Boston or Detroit, Paxson would be very much tempted to think the whole season was simply one of misfortune and bad luck and that we slap on a new coat of propaganda for the new season and have a go at it again next year.
