Trade Iguodala

[ChuckS]

I suppose it makes sense - in Philadelphia - to blame this year's problems on Iguodala. I do not understand it because I only spent a year there. "I think it was on a Sunday". (To quote WC Fields.)

I could understand if outsiders, however, looked at this roster and believed that either Andre was the least of the Sixer's problems. (Thankfully, it seems to me that Stefanski does.) I certainly understand subjectivity. Everyone is a little subjective. But much criticism of our obviously best players has bordered on the ludicrous.

In AI's case he is, I believe, primarily being persecuted for doing what every above average player (AND HIS AGENT) has done since Kevin Garnett. Actually almost every employee in the free world, on some level, does the same thing. Andre is trying to maximize his salary for a very finite career. Why do some care so much unless they are delusional and believe that Ed S. is dumber than them? That is what bosses are for. If Andre is too greedy, it is he who will pay. If he gets POd, he can just live with the MLE to play for a good team. Certainly that is a tremendous sacrifice, but we might then be convinced he is better off than we will be without him or an equal value replacement. I suppose you can never have too much money, although I certainly cannot speak with gospel certainty. It would be interesting to see a player do that before he is forty, and while he can actually contribute to winning a championship. AK47 is the only one I've ever even heard mention the possibility.

I know it must make sense to some, but I also get confused by the logic of getting rid of a player because he might only be the second or third best on a great team. I wonder if any Spurs fans would think that about Manu or Tony, if they didn't have Duncan. It would seem to me that the more prudent fan or organization would worry more about the twelve others on the team...particularly with a roster like ours.

I prefer not to elaborate on the lack of courage, slow first step, or lousy defense. I get in enough trouble when I can be tactful.

We go through this every year with the promise of youthful talent. To some everyone else becomes expendable. It is probably a little worse this season, though, because all of our "kids" look they belong in the NBA.

But do we really want to get rid of our best player, for any of these guys. Take Thad, for example, the logical heir apparent, and current flavor of the month. I cannot imagine him ever being as strong, and the defender, that Andre is. We act like he is already God's gift to the Sixers, but are we so positive he will (anytime soon) be the scorer that AI is? His offense has been limited to uncontested (if beautiful) dunks. He looks like he might have a nice outside shot, but how much of that is wishful thinking? He certainly has not made many. I wonder if he will ever have the ball handling skills to create his own shot. Right now he seems like Big Dog without the jumper. He brings great energy and hustle when he comes in for Reggie, but our rebounding and interior defense and toughness goes to the dogs with him as the four. This is particularly so when he and Jason are on the floor together.

This is not meant as an attack. Certainly he, and Smith, and Williams will get better and stronger, and perhaps even be decent defenders. They are talented, NBA quality, athletes. I would just like to be more certain of their ultimate potential before frivolously calling for the removal of one of the two best players on the team.

I think Ed has done a good job in positioning us for the future without (at least thus far) getting rid of our core players. I am not particularly pleased about watching the "taking a step back so we can leap forward" part, but I will bow to his greater expertise. It really should not be such a shock to me. I previously experienced "taking a step back", for about ten years, at least twice in the history of this franchise. In honesty, I really do not expect that this time. Our youthful talent, and excellent cap position should preclude that.

I apologize to the guy that hates my long posts. (As if the content wasn't bad enough.) I made a new year's resolution to stop posting and making everyone so angry. So when I break it, I wan't to get my monies worth, so to speak.)

[bebopdeluxe]

ChuckS:

I liked some of the things in your post, but...

Thad = Big Dog without the jumper?

Erk.

I've seen more defense from Thad in 30-odd games than I saw in Robinson's career. I agree with your flavor-of-the-month assessment (to a point), but I would also think that many of us who are so excited about Thad are that was because of the little things...taking charges, getting on the floor, boxing out...all pretty heady stuff from a 19-year-old. I liken many of his intangibles to the kind of things that Korver brought to the table, but while Thad can work on his jumper, Kyle can't improve his lateral quicks and athleticism.

But back to Iggy...I hope that I have separated my comments about him from others in this thread. I think he's a fine player. That does not mean that I think that - with this team's current construction - that I view him as the best 38 mpg SG that $57 million can buy.

Get me a low-post offensive threat, however, and I might change my mind.

[SendEm]

Thad's like Big Dawg without the jumper? Glenn Robinson never played a lick of defense or understood the meaning of the words "hustle" and "team work." Glenn Robinson's whole game was built around that jumper which was amongst the absolute best in the league for years. If Thad can eventually develop HALF the shooting touch of Glenn Robinson I will be willing to trade Iggy for peanuts. But this thread isn't about trading Iggy for peanuts, it's about trading Iggy to IMPROVE our franchise. I can't figure out why so many people have come into this thread posting under the perception that people want to give Iggy away and that trading Iggy will set the team back years. He's a 19ppg 24 year olg sg/sf shooting .436% while playing 40 minutes. It is not difficult at all to make a trade to replace that kind of player while making your team better both IMMEDIATELY AND MOVING FORWARD.

[Mik317]

it's because your the douchebag saying that he's easily replacable.......

[tk76]

SendEm- Please name one poster who is not in favor of trading Iguodala if we get a proven promissing young big man in return.

I think the debate is over whether Iguodala is a coward and a bum who will destroy any hope for the Sixers if we keep him. On this point I do not agree with you.

Chuck- your post is pretty much accurate, but when you make a long post people willl just focus on the one small bit they disagree with, and the rest of your point will be lost.

[SouthJersey]

Iguodala does give this team plenty of D, but his turnovers are a problem. He did not have this issue early in his career bc he wasnt asked to handle the ball; now that he's handling the ball more, I dont know if he's fit to make the move to SG. His dribbling is fine, but his decision making is bad, and often leads to bad shots bein taken late into the shot clock. He's a stat stuffer, but I dont think he's the future at the 2.

[tk76]

He may not be the future at the 2. If in 2-3 years we have a surplus at his position and can trade him to fill a need I'm all for it. I also would move him this summer if it was in a swap of another promising player at a position of need (say swap in a sign and trade for Okafor or part of a bigger deal for Amare.)

Since we have so few established good players on our team, I see no rush to move him before he is resigned.

[Sixerscan]

Perhaps Stefanski can find that low-post threat that can open up this offense and let Iggy shine...if he can do that, then I can see Iggy here as the SG of the future...but if he can't find that guy, I would at least consider the possibility of moving Iggy in a S&T to get that legit #1 offensive option - either at PF or SG.

Why would someone trade a number 1 option for a player that's not even top 40? Why would a number 1 option free agent want to come to this team if Iguodala isn't here?

You can consider a lot of things, I just choose to only consider things that actually have a chance of happening.

[cx09]

Thad's like Big Dawg without the jumper? Glenn Robinson never played a lick of defense or understood the meaning of the words "hustle" and "team work." Glenn Robinson's whole game was built around that jumper which was amongst the absolute best in the league for years. If Thad can eventually develop HALF the shooting touch of Glenn Robinson I will be willing to trade Iggy for peanuts. But this thread isn't about trading Iggy for peanuts, it's about trading Iggy to IMPROVE our franchise. I can't figure out why so many people have come into this thread posting under the perception that people want to give Iggy away and that trading Iggy will set the team back years. He's a 19ppg 24 year olg sg/sf shooting .436% while playing 40 minutes. It is not difficult at all to make a trade to replace that kind of player while making your team better both IMMEDIATELY AND MOVING FORWARD.

you know what i've figured out? even though you're impervious to reason when it comes to discussing iguodala, rendering discussion pretty worthless, it's fun to argue about it simply because it reminds me of all the reasons why he's a great player, and ultimately makes me thankful that he's on our team.

i think one of the biggest problems with your argument about iguodala at this point is that you're confusing his deficiency of offensive skills with lack of "killer instinct" or whatever it is about him that makes you say he's a "coward."

i'll make it really simple for you. facts: iguodala is not a superior ball handler. he does not create his own shot well. he does not finish at the rim well. his jumpshot is inconsistent. in those 4 statements, i've pretty much summed up everything that's wrong with iguodala's game. to put it another way, he's not a #1 scoring option. that doesn't make him a useless asset to a team. everything else he offers is worth, if not $12m/year, a sizeable portion of the team's salary.

you need to relax man. stefanski's got the ball now, he's not going to overpay. if iguodala's demands are ridiculous, they will not be met. if they're reasonable, we'll get to keep one of my favorite nba players.

and, godwilling, the sixer's retaining him will disgust SendEM so much that he decides never to post here again.

Edit:
i meant to add: regarding how easily replaceable iggy supposedly is, who do you think we're going to get that adequately replaces everything he brings to the table? i'd be surprised if you can come up with one viable option.

[bebopdeluxe]

Sixerscan:

1) Said team may choose to trade their #1 scoring option because - being below the cap - we can take back more contract than we would send them in a signed Iguodala (ex: Redd, Amare);

2) What #1 option FA that will be available this summer would balk at coming to the Sixers if we are the only team that can give them the big $$$ that they want? In addition, if we do a S&T for Iggy, I am assuming that we do get back something of value. If we S&T Iguodala for a more traditional score-the-ball SG, then the #1 option FA (which, for the sake of this example, we will assume to be a big man) will see a more balanced lineup (in addition to all of the "Benjamins" in his bank account).

I have to say - these discussions surounding Iguodala seem to be touching some really raw nerves at times around here. You are free to not agree with my thought process (many around here seem to be in that camp), but I do think that Stefanski needs to look at every legal option to improve this team...use every resource at his disposal...and to some around here, it sounds like suggesting the possibility of a S&T for Iggy is one step above killing babies (which is different from killing puppies).

If there is no good deal for Iguodala, we don't trade him.

We offer him a fair amount for his services (which Eddie will figure out by the summer). If he likes it and takes it, great! If he doesn't, it means more cap room in 2009. But while some on this forum have a dismissive opinion of Iguodala that (IMO) invalidates their opinion, having a rational debate about whether Iggy is our long-term answer at SG (with the financial repurcussions that come with that) is a fair question...isn't it?

Lastly, your little "You can consider a lot of things, I just choose to only consider things that actually have a chance of happening" is pretty f*cking condescending - especially from a mod.

Have a nice day.

[The Sixer Fixer]

-= original quote snipped =-
Why would someone trade a number 1 option for a player that's not even top 40? Why would a number 1 option free agent want to come to this team if Iguodala isn't here?

You can consider a lot of things, I just choose to only consider things that actually have a chance of happening.

I believe he's saying we acquire the #1 in a S/T with Iguodala (plus us throwing something else in like a #1 pick or whatever). That would not be a situation where the #1 option has a choice to come here since they would already be under contract. Something like acquiring Gasol or Amare in a deal for Iguodala +.

I don't think a situation like this is that far fetched. Especially if we are talking about someone like Gasol (if you see him as a #1).

[cx09]

-= original quote snipped =-



I believe he's saying we acquire the #1 in a S/T with Iguodala (plus us throwing something else in like a #1 pick or whatever). That would not be a situation where the #1 option has a choice to come here since they would already be under contract. Something like acquiring Gasol or Amare in a deal for Iguodala +.

I don't think a situation like this is that far fetched. Especially if we are talking about someone like Gasol (if you see him as a #1).

if we do a s/t with iguodala for gasol i will take a sh** on my chris webber 2005-2006 76ers jersey and then flush it down the toilet.

[SendEm]

Iggy's efficiency per minute STINKS.

EPM:
Iggy .486
Rudy Gay .487
Ronnie Brewer .467
Thaddeus Young .443
Jamal Crawford .383
Manu Ginobili .644
LeBron James .753
Josh Howard .563
Caron Butler .588
Mike Dunleavy .522
Kobe Bryant .673
Gerald Wallace .506

Iggy gets his stats by just playing a large amount of minutes. His actual production and efficiency per minute is low.

[Sixerscan]

Sixerscan:

1) Said team may choose to trade their #1 scoring option because - being below the cap - we can take back more contract than we would send them in a signed Iguodala (ex: Redd, Amare);

The Suns aren't going to trade Amare for a swingman. That wouldn't make any sense. What, would they start Marion and Iggy at the 4 and 5?



And Mike Redd? You serious? He gets paid the max and doesn't play any defense. Why would you ever want him over Iggy?

2) What #1 option FA that will be available this summer would balk at coming to the Sixers if we are the only team that can give them the big $$$ that they want?

Their own teams can give them the money they want if it comes down to it.

In addition, if we do a S&T for Iggy, I am assuming that we do get back something of value. If we S&T Iguodala for a more traditional score-the-ball SG, then the #1 option FA (which, for the sake of this example, we will assume to be a big man) will see a more balanced lineup (in addition to all of the "Benjamins" in his bank account).

It's not that easy though. No one is going to trade a #1 option for a "not top 40 player"

I have to say - these discussions surounding Iguodala seem to be touching some really raw nerves at times around here. You are free to not agree with my thought process (many around here seem to be in that camp), but I do think that Stefanski needs to look at every legal option to improve this team...use every resource at his disposal...and to some around here, it sounds like suggesting the possibility of a S&T for Iggy is one step above killing babies (which is different from killing puppies).

No, it's bothering me because what you're saying would never happen and is a waste of time. It would be like someone coming on here and saying "Trade Thad for LeBron!"

We offer him a fair amount for his services (which Eddie will figure out by the summer). If he likes it and takes it, great! If he doesn't, it means more cap room in 2009. But while some on this forum have a dismissive opinion of Iguodala that (IMO) invalidates their opinion, having a rational debate about whether Iggy is our long-term answer at SG (with the financial repurcussions that come with that) is a fair question...isn't it?

That's not what you're saying though, you're saying trade him for a guy that made 1st team all NBA last year.

Lastly, your little "You can consider a lot of things, I just choose to only consider things that actually have a chance of happening" is pretty f*cking condescending - especially from a mod.

Have a nice day.

Did you really just call another person condescending? Look at how you ended that post for gosh sakes! Nearly everyone one of your response to people has some sarcastic remark like "uh, ok" or "I guess that makes sense" or some condescending statement like that. I don't really care because I've just found that's the way you are and I'm able to look past that. But you calling me condescending is just funny.

And you're right, I am being condescending, because I don't think the option you're putting out there is realistic.

[Sixerscan]

Iggy's efficiency per minute STINKS.

EPM:
Iggy .486
Rudy Gay .487
Ronnie Brewer .467
Thaddeus Young .443
Jamal Crawford .383
Manu Ginobili .644
LeBron James .753
Josh Howard .563
Caron Butler .588
Mike Dunleavy .522
Kobe Bryant .673
Gerald Wallace .506

Iggy gets his stats by just playing a large amount of minutes. His actual production and efficiency per minute is low.

I like to think that NBA.com uses crayons to add up that stat.

[dbodner]

-= original quote snipped =-



I like to think that NBA.com uses crayons to add up that stat.

If you're going to pick an arbitrary stat to measure one's effectiveness, at least pick one:
1) that takes into account defense as well as offense
2) one that isn't complete junk
3) explain why you support using that stat.

I personally think PER is 100x better than efficiency, and PER differential to be just about the best single statistic used to be measure ability (of which there is no perfect statistic). Using the people you used in your example, it would be the following (this is also on a per-minute basis):
LeBron James +19.8
Manu Ginobili +15.4
Kobe Bryant +14.9
Caron Butler +8.3
Josh Howard +8.3
Iggy +6.5
Mike Dunleavy +4.3
Gerald Wallace +3.0
Rudy Gay +2.1
Ronnie Brewer +2.0
Jamal Crawford +1.8
Thaddeus Young -0.9

That paints a much better picture IMO. You have the superstars (LeBron, Kobe, and Manu because his per minute production is ridiculous), the next tier of people who are very good, but comparable, then others who don't belong.

Seems about right to me.

[ahwi_quacoe]

If Iguodala wasn't handling the ball often , how would he be useful on offense ? He can't shoot jumpers . can't post up . I'm not paying 57 million for a guy who sets screens and catches alley oops .............oooo wait iverson isn't here so no more fast break dunks or alley-oops for Iggy

[SendEm]

Here is the Efficiency calculation as developed by the NBA:

EFF = ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers))

EFF/minutes=EPM

EPM has to be the greatest stat ever because it enumerates the exact way that I have been looking at players since I was a child. I always took into account their total effectiveness. That's precisely what EPM accomplishes.

[SendEm]

If Iguodala wasn't handling the ball often , how would he be useful on offense ? He can't shoot jumpers . can't post up . I'm not paying 57 million for a guy who sets screens and catches alley oops .............oooo wait iverson isn't here so no more fast break dunks or alley-oops for Iggy

[Sixerscan]

EPM has to be the greatest stat ever because it enumerates the exact way that I have been looking at players since I was a child.

Exactly, it's like a 5 year old made it up.

A point is not worth the same as an assist or a rebound or a steal or a block.