LA Lakers @ San Antonio Spurs, Game #40, on ESPN

[Tommy Trojan]

Isn't he strung out on heroin?

Yeah he is on some kind of drugs

[UThinkUrSoGood]

No, I don't think Kobe was putting his head down and deciding to shoot his way to victory. He took the first couple of shots, but he wasn't jacking up threes. He got into the high post. No cutters. No movement.

He tried to force the action, he wasn't successful, but what else could he do? He was trying to be aggressive and get things going with a passive group of teammates.

I mean, ok, if somebody can give me a reasonable alternative, then fine. Kobe should have passed to Odom...then what? Offensive foul? Go into the post and get owned by Duncan? Take a perimeter shot?

Or should we try to establish Kwame against Duncan?

Or, gasp, Walton, who's clearly a liability right now.

Fish took 12 shots in 28 minutes, 3 above his average, and he was 4-12. Ice cold.

That was the lineup that Kobe was playing with. So please, considering that we're Laker fans and know our players, let's go ahead and bury kobe as a selfish idiot and propose an effective alternative strategy.

Oh I know, let's go back to what was working for us in the first half, like, putting in Turiaf, Farmar, and Sasha around Kobe.

I don't know, I guess Kobe is a schizo or a complete idiot. He's just selfish. He must have had the sudden desire to score 100 points after halftime.

+1 +1 +1

Thank you, I'm glad someone here can realize the situation for Kobe instead of blaming our team's downfall on him.

[milesfides]

As for Fish and the rest of the team...
You're on the road. Your momentum has been snatched away and you are playing the champs. Playing desperation mode after abanoning what was successful for you earlier is a recipe for failure. Eveyone began forcing shots and running around like chickens with heads cut off.

The flow was wiped awy within that first 3 - 4 minutes and that was a big part of our downfall.

Well I disagree about Fish. He just missed shots tonight. It's not like he took a page out of Kobe's book and tried to shoot his way into the game. Shooting is Fish's game. Most of the time this season, he's on. Sometimes, like tonight, he was off.

Nothing that Kobe Bryant does (aside from creating open looks for Fish) affects Fish's mentality. He does what he does. Shoot the ball.

And I don't agree about our teammates panicking after Kobe took and missed a few shots. Because these are the usual suspects. Walton has been a liability for most of the year. He's just not right with that ankle. Odom has been a disappointment offensively, and he's had trouble playing off the ball for 3.5 years as a Laker. Kwame, do I have to say more?

This isn't about panicking, this is about a group of teammates who have demonstrated so far this season that they're not reliable offensive players. Whether Kobe is aggressive, passive, or whatever, these guys just have been disappointing (with the exception of Fisher, he was just off).

In vivid contrast, guys like Farmar, Sasha, Turiaf have been productive. These guys actually have offensive talent.

To me, it's just absolutely no surprise how the third quarter went. I guess if Kobe got hot, he would have made it a moot point, but I was wondering why Phil didn't call time out, stop the bleeding, and bring back the lineup that gave us success. Instead, Phil did his let-them-suffer thing, let the Spurs take away our lead and build their own.

In the fourth, Phil went with Farmar, Turiaf, Sasha, and guess what. They stopped kicking our asses. True, we didn't cut into their lead, but we were no longer outmatched. Let's face it: the Spurs are one of the best teams in the league, and when our best 5 were playing, we play them well - even without Bynum.

Putting Kwame, Walton, and Odom out there, I don't know. Good Lord, please have mercy.

Again, it takes two for an assist. One guy to create a shot, the other to finish.

That starting lineup just didn't have enough of the latter.

Again, I didn't see Kobe just gunning. He was getting into the high post. In the second half, guys like Farmar, Vujacic spot open, guys like Turiaf dove into the post.

Odom, Walton, Kwame, they just watch.

[ak777]

-= original quote snipped =-



Where were you last week when I was pushing for that? Could have used your help...

I didnt see your post....otherwise i would back u up.....his ban is lifting on the 28th i think and honestly he is far better then DJ

[Erik Eleven]

Yeah, we should pick up birdman. He can rebound, catch passes and he eats small, cutting guards for breakfast.

[zen_4_10]

Well I disagree about Fish. He just missed shots tonight. It's not like he took a page out of Kobe's book and tried to shoot his way into the game. Shooting is Fish's game. Most of the time this season, he's on. Sometimes, like tonight, he was off.

Nothing that Kobe Bryant does (aside from creating open looks for Fish) affects Fish's mentality. He does what he does. Shoot the ball.

And I don't agree about our teammates panicking after Kobe took and missed a few shots. Because these are the usual suspects. Walton has been a liability for most of the year. He's just not right with that ankle. Odom has been a disappointment offensively, and he's had trouble playing off the ball for 3.5 years as a Laker. Kwame, do I have to say more?

This isn't about panicking, this is about a group of teammates who have demonstrated so far this season that they're not reliable offensive players. Whether Kobe is aggressive, passive, or whatever, these guys just have been disappointing (with the exception of Fisher, he was just off).

In vivid contrast, guys like Farmar, Sasha, Turiaf have been productive. These guys actually have offensive talent.

To me, it's just absolutely no surprise how the third quarter went. I guess if Kobe got hot, he would have made it a moot point, but I was wondering why Phil didn't bring back what gave us success when the Spurs cut into our lead. He let them take away their lead, and build their own.

Again, it takes two for an assist. One guy to create a shot, the other to finish.

That starting lineup just didn't have enough of the latter.

Again, I didn't see Kobe just gunning. He was getting into the high post. In the second half, guys like Farmar, Vujacic spot open, guys like Turiaf dove into the post.

Odom, Walton, Kwame, they just watch.

We actually agree on on a lot of these points in general but the fact remains to call out and hold Kobe accountable as being a primary reason for a loss sometimes. Like you said - Kobe makes the shots, it's all good but I'll still say personally that while I'm watching, I'm still shaking my head saying "omg wtf was that" before I say "wow...nice shot" in those moments.

Sometimes Kobe saves you...sometimes he drags you down.

[milesfides]

HarlemHeat37, Thanks for dropping by, and I can only speak for myself, but I personally agree with everything you said, very insightful, fair and balanced.

[Griever24]

GG guys..

a few comments from me as a Spurs fan..

-I didn't think the refs were as bad as a few people in this thread were saying..Kobe did get hacked a few times, but it wasn't anything that would have changed the game..calls that refs miss every game..BUT I do find it strange that KOBE doesn't get some of those calls..simply because I watched my Spurs play Lebron last week, and while they missed a few hacks against him too, he seems to get away with A LOT of **** that Kobe doesn't get away with..not to mention the 2 horrible calls for Lebron at the end that was partly the reason the Spurs lost(I don't blame the refs, we should have easily beat Cleveland)..

-I don't really know what to say about how Kobe played..I'm usually a Kobe hater as many of you know, but I've enjoyed his game a lot more this year with the emergence of Bynum and his supporting cast..he's playing some great team ball, while his team has been one of the best..

I don't know what to think about him being "selfish" in the 2nd half though..the shots he was taking weren't bad..the 1st two were very well played by Bowen and Duncan, so you can't blame Kobe for that..a lot of the credit should go to San Antonio's D in the 2nd half for making adjustments to Kobe..and none of the other players stepped up exactly..so not really Kobe's fault..

-I like Turiaf's game..I think he could be a starter in the NBA for a long time as his maturity keeps involving and his game evolves..nice energy..played good D..good finisher..

-Lamar Odom is an embarrassment though..I remember him in his Heat days, and while he wasn't great, he wasn't as bad as he is now..he isn't a bad player of course, but he is always ranked by his "potential"..I don't think that can be applied anymore..at first I didn't like how Finley was guarding him, and other smaller players..but as the quarter progressed, I was actually cheering for Odom to get the ball so he can turn it over

-Luke Walton isn't bad, but I didn't even notice that he was on the floor at any time during this game..

Lol thanks Harlem .. i agreed while i dont think it was the worst Ref job i do believe kobe could have got a few of those

and nothing against LeBron love the guy he is special but you are so right i watched that game vs Spurs and the one vs grizzlies and the guy just cant get tapped

he is D-wade 2.0 of 05-06.. and his cast Varejo, Big Z and Hughes get away with the worst flops but back to the game

Nailed it on Odom and luke is going through a injury supposedly but i still dont think he should be playing that bad not to mention he just looks like he has no confidence.

Turiaf i also agree as long as he can string this to more games because he seems to bring it some nights and some nights he cant buy a bucket

overall you guys really beat us ... but i dont think its easily Spurs> then Lakers, i believe it would be a good series once we get fully healthy and playoff time comes.

and also whats your thoughts on Phil not calling another timeout during that stretch in the 3rd Quarter ? i dont like the strategy, it worked well with Payton Malone horry Shaq ETC but with a young squad like this dont you think its best to call timeouts when they are going through a tough stretch ?

[SashAlex]

Kobe 9 turnovers ?! Lamar 5 ?! Kobe with more tunrovers than the Spurs ! At least he was active, but Lamar is so passive almost all the time ? If I were Mitch, I'd do a trade straight away ! Now I really do understand that he's a "bit" overrated by the media. But Mitch has to use that in our favour and send Kwame + Lamar somewhere else getting some young talent and a huuge cap space !

[SashAlex]

I know why we lost ! It is my bad luck this season. Last season I was a little but luckier ! )))

I think we'll beat Dallas ! Even if we lose. Just keep the positive record until Drewski comes back ! Even if we end up 8th, we'll smoke them in the playoffs with our fella healthy ans at full strenght !

Just keep being positive !

[milesfides]

-= original quote snipped =-



We actually agree on on a lot of these points in general but the fact remains to call out and hold Kobe accountable as being a primary reason for a loss sometimes. Like you said - Kobe makes the shots, it's all good but I'll still say personally that while I'm watching, I'm still shaking my head saying "omg wtf was that" before I say "wow...nice shot" in those moments.

Sometimes Kobe saves you...sometimes he drags you down.

Haha, I see what you're saying, but I don't think I'm saying what you think I'm saying.

Those were tough shots by Kobe. But in my opinion, based on that lineup, those were the BEST shots. I just didn't see Odom or Kwame doing anything against Duncan. Fish was cold and Luke was forgettable.

Given the situation (Our coach has just keeled over and died and we can't make substitutions), what's the choice going to be?

Have those inept guys try to get more touches against one of the best defenses in the league, or should Kobe aggressively look for his own shot?

At that point, I roll the dice with Mamba. It's the same thing with a last second shot. Let's say Lamar was open for the three. Wide open. Let's say Kobe was contested. I want Kobe to take that three. True, it's a tough shot, but he can make it, and I'd rather have him take that tough shot than have Odom and Kwame and Luke keep challenging the Spurs' defense.

Because with Kobe, you always have that chance that he'll make any shot.

However, with Odom, Kwame, and Walton, it's pretty much guaranteed that they won't be able to overcome the Spurs defense.

I don't blame Kobe. I think it was the right decision to look more aggressively for his own shot, and if some feel that violates a basic basketball principle, I'd show you Lamar, Kwame, and Walton. Those three guys are walking violations of basic basketball principles right now.

[ak777]

Kobe 9 turnovers ?! Lamar 5 ?! Kobe with more tunrovers than the Spurs ! At least he was active, but Lamar is so passive almost all the time ? If I were Mitch, I'd do a trade straight away ! Now I really do understand that he's a "bit" overrated by the media. But Mitch has to use that in our favour and send Kwame + Lamar somewhere else getting some young talent and a huuge cap space !

like who? I am ready to trade lamar on 1 foot

[CITYOFANGELSX3]

I dont see Mitch doing that, but it would make tons of sense for the summer cap wise.

[That Nicka]

Im so damn sick of Odom and Kwame.... At this point Id almost take anything for them....

Lamar has not stepped up even a little bit since Bynum went down.. For him to take only 7 shots with Finley/Udoka guarding him most of the game is inexcusable

Kwame is just a waste of space... Last year he was at least a good defender... now hes not good at anything except sucking

[milesfides]

A bit harsh. I just think guys like Fisher and Farmar have supplanted Odom as the 2nd scorer whenever they're on the floor. We didn't lose because Odom didn't take enough shots. I mean, he was having enough trouble as it is with his 7 shots and 5 turnovers. It wasn't coming easy for him; I'm not so sure more shot attempts would be the best idea.

Kwame: The guy is out of shape. Maybe it's because he shaved his head, but he looks overweight. He's just not as quick and agile as he was last year. It makes sense though, the guy is coming back from an injury. It's an excuse, but a valid one. He just doesn't look right. Even when he dunks, he can't get up off the floor.

This was also against a terrific defensive team. Odom and Kwame aren't just going to bust through. At the end of the day, Duncan is a great player and those guys aren't. He outplayed our bigs and made it tough.

No need to kick our own players when they (understandably) were outperformed.

[zen_4_10]

-= original quote snipped =-



We actually agree on on a lot of these points in general but the fact remains to call out and hold Kobe accountable as being a primary reason for a loss sometimes. Like you said - Kobe makes the shots, it's all good but I'll still say personally that while I'm watching, I'm still shaking my head saying "omg wtf was that" before I say "wow...nice shot" in those moments.

Sometimes Kobe saves you...sometimes he drags you down.

Haha, I see what you're saying, but I don't think I'm saying what you think I'm saying.

Those were tough shots by Kobe. But in my opinion, based on that lineup, those were the BEST shots. I just didn't see Odom or Kwame doing anything against Duncan. Fish was cold and Luke was forgettable.

Given the situation (Our coach has just keeled over and died and we can't make substitutions), what's the choice going to be?

Have those inept guys try to get more touches against one of the best defenses in the league, or should Kobe aggressively look for his own shot?

At that point, I roll the dice with Mamba. It's the same thing with a last second shot. Let's say Lamar was open for the three. Wide open. Let's say Kobe was contested. I want Kobe to take that three. True, it's a tough shot, but he can make it, and I'd rather have him take that tough shot than have Odom and Kwame and Luke keep challenging the Spurs' defense.

Because with Kobe, you always have that chance that he'll make any shot.

However, with Odom, Kwame, and Walton, it's pretty much guaranteed that they won't be able to overcome the Spurs defense.

I don't blame Kobe. I think it was the right decision to look more aggressively for his own shot, and if some feel that violates a basic basketball principle, I'd show you Lamar, Kwame, and Walton. Those three guys are walking violations of basic basketball principles right now.

To be honest miles I think the the disconnect is at what point of the game you are referring to. The bug up my ass was the first few minutes after halftime, which was completey ALL Kobe, and responsible for our meltdown. Even Stu was harping on how the Lakers are going to be in trouble if they don't go back to what was working before.

I will agree that Phil should have made earlier adjustments but after knowing his style for a while - he'll take a loss to make a statement.

All in all I'm too drunk to argue anymore but I'll leave with saying I thought Kobe played like an A Hole to start the 2nd half (I bet PJ's press conferece said a lot about how our movement stopped - on and off the ball) and set the tone for our downfall. But Kobe was certainly a PART of the problem.

[That Nicka]

A bit harsh. I just think guys like Fisher and Farmar have supplanted Odom as the 2nd scorer whenever they're on the floor.

That in itself is inexcusable... Lamar Odom was brought to this team to be the 2nd option... Jordan Farmar is a 2nd year bench player and Derek Fisher is a career role player... Lamar Odom makes 13.5 million dollars a year to be a 2nd option... the man was the 4th pick of a pretty good draft no way should he be taking 7 shots in a game where he is defended by 2 guys that are 4-5 inches shorter than him...

At the beginning of the season Lamar Odom hoped to be an all star, and mid way through the season he is taking 7 shots in a game where he has the mis match... Thats not gonna get it done

Kwame: The guy is out of shape. Maybe it's because he shaved his head, but he looks overweight. He's just not as quick and agile as he was last year. It makes sense though, the guy is coming back from an injury. It's an excuse, but a valid one. He just doesn't look right. Even when he dunks, he can't get up off the floor.

The man is a professional athlete... He is paid, and paid well to be in shape.... He has been back for what? 2 weeks now? how long does he need to get in shape???


Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom are not carrying their weight, period.

[milesfides]

I hate hypotheticals, but hopefully I'll be able to communicate what I'm trying to say.

The lineup of Fish, Kobe, Walton, Odom, and Kwame will lose against Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen, and Duncan 9 out of 10 times. That's the hypothetical - I have no idea what the exact win/loss is with that lineup. But it's not very good. The plus/minuses must HEAVILY favor the Spurs lineup.

I say that because Fish is either hot/cold, Walton seems he's playing hurt, Odom is not playing well offensively, and Kwame is ineffective in the post - and out of shape to boot. In short, this lineup is primed for failure against one of the best teams in the league.

On the other hand, guys like Parker, Manu, and Duncan are among the best at their position. They're rock solid. Bowen is one of the best individual defenders in the league, and Finley is an established shooter.

Should Kobe have passed more? The easy answer is yes, because that's a basketball principle. Pass the ball around more, get everybody involved, make everybody a threat. However, in this case, the answer should be no.

Because the Spurs are that good of a team, and Kobe's teammates are that outmatched.

I am down with Kobe being aggressive, looking for his own shot, because with this lineup, if he tries to get this particular group of teammates involved, we'll lose.

Because I can't recall the last time Kwame Brown outplayed Duncan, or Odom, Ginobili, or Fisher, Parker. These guys have been OWNED by their Spurs counterparts.

On the other hand, there have been enough instances when Kobe took it upon himself and carried our team to victory - even against the Spurs.

With this lineup, the odds aren't good any way you cut it, but the best odds lie with an aggressive Kobe.

[LAL4Life]

I hate hypotheticals, but hopefully I'll be able to communicate what I'm trying to say.

The lineup of Fish, Kobe, Walton, Odom, and Kwame will lose against Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen, and Duncan 9 out of 10 times. That's the hypothetical - I have no idea what the exact win/loss is with that lineup. But it's not very good. The plus/minuses must HEAVILY favor the Spurs lineup.

I say that because Fish is either hot/cold, Walton seems he's playing hurt, Odom is not playing well offensively, and Kwame is ineffective in the post - and out of shape to boot. In short, this lineup is primed for failure against one of the best teams in the league.

On the other hand, guys like Parker, Manu, and Duncan are among the best at their position. They're rock solid. Bowen is one of the best individual defenders in the league, and Finley is an established shooter.

Should Kobe have passed more? The easy answer is yes, because that's a basketball principle. Pass the ball around more, get everybody involved, make everybody a threat. However, in this case, the answer should be no.

Because the Spurs are that good of a team, and Kobe's teammates are that outmatched.

I am down with Kobe being aggressive, looking for his own shot, because with this lineup, if he tries to get this particular group of teammates involved, we'll lose.

Because I can't recall the last time Kwame Brown outplayed Duncan, or Odom, Ginobili, or Fisher, Parker. These guys have been OWNED by their Spurs counterparts.

On the other hand, there have been enough instances when Kobe took it upon himself and carried our team to victory - even against the Spurs.

With this lineup, the odds aren't good any way you cut it, but the best odds lie with an aggressive Kobe.

Ummm... What he said

[That Nicka]

The lineup of Fish, Kobe, Walton, Odom, and Kwame will lose against Parker, Manu, Finley, Bowen, and Duncan 9 out of 10 times. That's the hypothetical - I have no idea what the exact win/loss is with that lineup. But it's not very good. The plus/minuses must HEAVILY favor the Spurs lineup.

Parker and Duncan will obviously dominate their matchups 9/10... But 4 things have to happen for us to have a chance:

1) Kobe has to outplay Ginobili - nuff said

2) Luke has to shadow Finley/Barry and make them non factors... These guys are nothing more than spot up shooters at this point in their careers... We cant let them get open shots

3) Our bench has to outplay theirs - Obviously our bench is undermanned with Rad, Mihm and Ariza out and Kwame in the starting lineup with Bynum out

4) LAMAR HAS TO MAKE THEM PAY FOR PUTTING A GUARD ON HIM... With them winning two matchups by default, we have to make them pay with Odom... Lamar should have 19 and 11 vs Finley... no excuse for that

How does Odom own Shawn Marion every game but is forced to thw perimeter by Mike Finley and Ime Udoka????