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Post#461 » by FNQ » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:27 am

I think there is something to this, but to play Devil's Advocate, you could also argue that shooting 3's instead of pounding it inside tires us out less, leaving more energy for defense. The degree to which we hound for turnovers and run the break would seem to indicate that we don't expend our energy (or the other team's energy) in the traditional manner.


Absolutely. But it also gives the opposing team the advantage, as their players have the better build - the tougher, stronger players. The sad part is, we often work really hard to get a shot we could have got with 20 seconds on the SC too.

I pointed this out as a weakness, but made the point that it may hit us less than it would most teams if we admit that our offensive rebounding sucks anyway. And the fact that our "power" forwards tend to lurk at the 3 point line is a counterpoint to this, because while we don't pull all of their big men out of the paint, we probably pull one out. Or get open 3's from Al/Barnes.


Athleticism never effects the game more than in rebounding... its like a giant rock paper scissors game... some strength beats quickness, some quickness beats position, some position beats strength... since we don't get good position due to our offense and all we have is quickness, it results in very few OREB... (dont even get me started on the defensive end)

I'm not sure what to make of this. I know what we do now is a problem; when we want to run clock, we switch to a standard half court offense and look completely lost. That can't be good. One alternative which seems terrifying is that we should just admit what we are and keep playing the same way, shooting 3's slightly more efficiently than our 2's. You point out later that when we get our 2's well, it opens up 3's. Perhaps the middle ground is just to consciously shift towards endeavoring to get the 2's that make us shoot 49%. Rather than pounding the ball, doing Harry High School (as Muss used to call it), or otherwise running clock but scoring 0 points.


Nellie force feeds it to Jack and Baron... Monta's the "captain" in transition, and thats about all... truth be told, Monta should be the closer, the go to guy. When he takes matters into his own hands, under control, great things happen. But much like every game, Monta's job is to bring the ball up, pass to Biedrins with the instant pass to Jackson, iso to Baron, wait, watch, repeat...

My point on the 3s part is that we do it backwards... we shoot 3s to open up easy layups, when every other team does the opposite.. our team is such a streaky team, it would make sense to try and penetrate with our good guards (Baron/Tay) when the team goes cold from the perimeter. Instead, Baron and Jax begin their chuckfest... Regardless of Reg Season W/L, its not effective.

That's hardly fair to Mr. Beane, as it ignores one very real axis in the math he's doing. I'm not sure he would do things the way he does if he could spend at will. He's trying to work with what he's got by being creative/contrarian. I think that isn't that different than what Nellie does. I think sometimes Nellie outthinks himself, but I don't think he's just a complete idiot. The one thing people consistently say about Nellie is he makes the most of what he's got. I really don't see anything in this team to convince me otherwise. We may not win a title with him running this team, probably won't, but I have trouble believing we'd be doing better if we brought in a more conventional coach.


For all the credit Beane gets, his ideas dont do any better than treading water, or are just smoke and mirrors. No other team will place so much importance on one aspect of the game every offseason... which is exactly Beane's strategy. Find underrated stats and maximize potential. Beane's real credit is that he knows when to sell high, not unlike Nellie. But no rings... do I think Billy Beane would win a championship with the Sox and Yanks budget? Absolutely - but honestly, very few GMs in the league wouldn't. Would he win with a middle market team? I'd guess not.

And the last comment:

The one thing people consistently say about Nellie is he makes the most of what he's got.

God that irritates me... he really doesn't. He gets to as far as his idea will get him... he maximizes his own idea. Are Wright and POB really so pathetic right now that Croshere and Mbenga were needed? Is putting Barnes at PF/C instead of giving Wright a chance to contribute the best we can do? Or is it his undying love affair with the 3 ball and the confident players who love to chuck it? Most have decided to just accept that Wright and POB aren't ready, and that POB is a bust... I havent seen enough of POB to make a solid judgement, but Wright is being absolutely screwed by not even getting rotational minutes... yes he's skinny, but he had to deal with big people @ UNC too... and he was a pretty damn good defender there and a great rebounder.
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Post#462 » by Thugleavy34 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:39 am

Winning is not exclusive to one style. Fundamentals can be practiced using small ball or by playing big, by shooting threes or running the break or using the pick and roll. Ideally a team can do ALL of these things well, but different teams can emphasize different things and I do believe a team that emphasizes pushing the tempo can win a championship. The problem is that it needs to be done right.

Smallball is still uncharted territory in that it hasn't been studyed and used and corrected like slow it down basketball has. It simply, like a young player, does not have the experience. Give it time to grow and coaches will be able to expand upon the ideas that have already been put out there so far.

I have no problem with the style itself but the execution of that style hasn't been up to par. We've been walking the ball up most of the time instead of pushing the ball off a made basket. Cap't Jack getting the rock at the wing, jab stepping, posting up, backing back out, crossing over once, crossing over twice, and throwing the ball into the hands of the opposition certainly hasn't helped. I like to see any style if it is executed well. That execution has not been what it should be and that's where my biggest gripe has been.
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Post#463 » by Sid the Squid » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:45 am

I love shot blocking bigs like Patrick O'Bryant
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Post#464 » by FNQ » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:11 am

[quote="Thugleavy34"][/quote]

There's no tradeoff. We aren't getting any better at the style we're trying, and there are teams like the Suns who are just flat out better at the style. Which begs the question - if we're an inferior version of the Suns, who are trying to perfect that method - with a franchise big, mind you - what are we doing here?

Why are we benching traditional PF/Cs, the ones who block and rebound, for ones who can shoot 3s, and are defensive liabilities based on physical limitations alone? Only one really young player even fits into this 3ball bonanza (Beli) and he can't even break into it either.

Of course execution is the key to any gameplan - but this is a gameplan that is short on time and resources. It isn't as if the run n gun style has never been thought of before, its that fundamentally sound teams gameplan for it, work on it, and eventually defeat it. The whole premise of our team is that we're gonna shoot a crapload of 3s and hope enough go in.

As for our personal execution... you cannot expect 5 guys to run 40 minutes straight a night, and for Nellieball to be effective, this year or next, that's what will need to happen. And in 2 years when Nellie's gone, we're turning it over to Keith Smart... for more of the same? Where will that leave Monta? Beans? Wright? It's been asked before - what are we trying to accomplish here?
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Post#465 » by Thugleavy34 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:28 am

510Reggae wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
What are we trying to accomplish here?


Well, I wouldn't say that our style is the same as the Suns. We are a run and gun team, but that's about where the similarities end. The Suns, for instance, play a very soft brand of basketball where they don't believe in fouling the opposition because it slows down the pace of the game. We obviously don't believe that---whether we should is another discussion within itself, but that was just one example how two teams can play at a similar tempo but may have different philosophies on different parts of the game. I think we're aiming for a more physical brand of basketball that imposes more pressure on the opponent. If this is the case I'm very much for it. There's a guy named Tyler Smith in Tennessee that fits the mold in the brand of basketball I'm talking about.

I have no problem with running, but I would turn it down when it comes to the 3's. With a mentality of playing fast, physical, in your face basketball, shooting 3's doesn't quite get the point across like, say, taking it strong into the paint and dunking over Andrea Kirilenko. The thing, I love Nellie's philosophy of, if a teammate creates a shot for you, you have to take it. So, you might be asking, isn't this a bit of a contradiction? Not quite. If we're shooting too many threes, I don't point the finger at the guys taking them, unless those guys are chucking it up off the dribble. The onus is on the distributer. It is up to Baron Davis to see that there is a productive balance in the shots that he is creating for his teammates.

What we need are more passes off the pick and roll, more passes to cutting players, more screens off the ball. These are all familiar concepts that slow it down teams use that help them run a productive offense. Uptempo teams can play at the same level as well, the problem is that many of them do not know how to apply these fundaments. This is what I mean when I talk about execution. The same fundamentals that apply to playing the slow it down style apply to the run n gun teams as well. The problem is that most run n gun teams do not emphasize these things enough. One day there will finally be a team that gets it right, and hordes of copycats in its wake.
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Post#466 » by bballguy50 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:09 am

We are more physical than the Suns, but we don't have the bodies to be totally physical. When we have to ask our G's to grab boards, and when Barnes is our toughest guy inside on D (Beans?), we can't expect to fully compete with more conventional teams and PF/C's.

We don't cut or move without the ball as much as we should because we do have a lot of 3PT shooters. Guys will wait at the arc for Baron/Monta to penetrate and kick it out. With so many 3's, it kinda gets engrained in you to wait at the 3 (same with our iso's). I just wish we would recognize to take it inside when our shots aren't falling. Then, we wouldn't need Jax/Baron to make so many tough 3's.

The pick-n-roll with Beans, man. So simple, yet so effective.

I don't think Smart will necessarily follow in Nellie's piss trail of decisions. Does he have the stones to change things up? Maybe, maybe not.
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Post#467 » by FNQ » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:12 am

I've seen Tyler... he was one of my favorites from way back. When that 2008 Draft Watching thread pops up again so I can tell you all how great Serge Ibaka could be (and man, could he be amazing), you can take a look. Dont think I went in too deep though.

Problem with blaming Baron the distributor is that Nellie wants him or Jax to handle the ball primarily. He doesn't trust Monta enough to leave him in, despite what Monta does w/the ball. Eventually, Baron's going to mail it in, anywhere between 5-15 posessions a game... same w/ Jax. It's criminal how quickly Monta passes the ball to Biedrins or Jax as soon as he gets it... he's not allowed to initiate unless its planned.

Everything you describe - couldnt that be done with more agile, athletic players? Sure they can't step in and make it look seamless - but when will they? After how many years on the bench and playing in practice does it take before they are ready to even get their feet wet? Obviously the current cast and crew is a patch job - so why do we take people in the lotto who apparently arent ready to contribute for over a year? (BTW - we didn't).

Anyone who witnessed Wright's collegiate "career" knows he can offer a lot more than whats being offered at PF right now, even w/no knowledge of a playbook.
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Post#468 » by Twinkie defense » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:43 am

Some great points, Mylie and CPH.

Classic thread. Maybe keep it to three paragraphs though ;)

In reading some of this discussion, it paints a picture of an offense that says "we'll dunk it or lay it up or we'll take the three."

And I think, that's not a bad thing... entertaining, and seeming to conform to the points per shot model CPH offers.

I agree that the Warriors chuck too many threes. I don't mind the attempts, but I want to see as many of those as possible coming off catch and shoot, penetrate and kick... hell even the fastbreak is okay sometimes. But the dribble around and chuck variety does not seem to be as high a percentage shot.
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Post#469 » by Thugleavy34 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:59 am

bballguy50 wrote:We are more physical than the Suns, but we don't have the bodies to be totally physical.


Most definitely. We need more manpower.

Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson, and Matt Barnes are guys that seem to fully embody the fast, physical mentality that I brought up in the last post---it's no coincidence that they're our three captains. If we had bigs that did the same? Well, we're looking for that, although it's hard to find. Josh Smith is such a big, and

510Reggae wrote:Serge Ibaka


has enormous potential to be one. Devon Hardin would be a pretty nice addition, as well.

510Reggae wrote:I've seen Tyler... he was one of my favorites from way back. When that 2008 Draft Watching thread pops up again so I can tell you all how great Serge Ibaka could be (and man, could he be amazing), you can take a look. Dont think I went in too deep though.


Yeah, I know, that's why I brought him up. I remember us both approving the kids' game and his demeanor.

510Reggae wrote:Eventually, Baron's going to mail it in, anywhere between 5-15 posessions a game... same w/ Jax. It's criminal how quickly Monta passes the ball to Biedrins or Jax as soon as he gets it.


Well, right now Baron and Jackson are the better players. I wish that Jackson or Nellie would better recognize when Jax is off (now), but as for Baron, he's our best PG, so you have to live and die with what he gives you until he's gone. This is why I've wanted Monta to come off the bench and spell Baron for 20 minutes a night. He deserves to be in longer, I know, but it could prove to be valuable learning experience at the PG spot. I've spoken openly of my desire for Baron to leave either this coming offseason or next, and having Monta replace him. I would love if we could give him one or two seasons of limited opportunity at the 1 and arrange it in such a way that his minutes grow and grow at that spot until Baron leaves and Monta transitions smoothly into his place.

510Reggae wrote:Everything you describe - couldnt that be done with more agile, athletic players?


Sure. It just so happens that they don't exactly grow on trees.

510Reggae wrote:Why do we take people in the lotto who apparently arent ready to contribute for over a year?


We're kind of going off into a different tangent here. I'm not sure how I feel about the rooks, at this point. I would like for us to do a better job of drafting quick, physical players. Belli ain't exactly that, although Brandan could be something.
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Post#470 » by FNQ » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:25 pm

They may not grow on trees... but we've got two friggin trees anchored to the bench, lamenting the fact that we have no size or rebounding... and its not like those trees can't run either...

Overall it paints the picture of a coach w/limitations, and those limitations are crippling our future.
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Post#471 » by Mylie10 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:40 pm

Reggae, there's no doubt that you're right about our two 7'6" wingspans wasting away on the bench.

They both could be contributing by now if we were coaching. The only way they get out there with regularity this year is if someone goes down with injury. If Nellies forced to play them then he will. Otherwise no go.

Hopefully though with another offseason under their belt, they can fully crack the rotation. They have to lose the deer in the headlights look they often get and find a way to contribute with confidence. Confidence is what Nellie looks for and is what he'll use.

Think back to the playoffs last year. He benched Al and Monta because their confidence went into the crapper. Part of that was because Nellie lost confidence in them, but they had to find it within themselves to bring it up a notch and get back in his good graces.

Monta's playing with supreme confidence this year, but if he starts pressing around the time of the playoffs Nellie will sit him down.

We need to be more like Phoenix on the one hand and move the ball more and quickly around the perimeter.

Phoenix has to be more like us and get tougher.

But let's be real honest, if we had Marion or Amare on our current squad, we'd be friggin good. We don't have that type of athletic big.

Wright could reach that level when he fills out, but for now Al and Beans don't match those 2.

Reggae I feel your pain with Nellie, but he's here and he is what he is. Your'e not gonna change him. He's here short term and that why the developement sucks.

Hopefully when Nellie goes, we'll still be in position to move into the next level.

I'll be really pissed though if we use Wright as a trade piece to get some short term fix. If that happens, I'll be right there with you picketing the franchise and publically calling for the heads of all management.
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Post#472 » by FNQ » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:44 pm

I'm not picketing the franchise... I've got a receipt to prove it :D

I just completely disagree with the way they are doing business, and the way they are selling it to us... are we really trying to win now? Do we have to play guys like Mbenga, Croshere, Watson, and Pietrus to be better? Isn't investing in our 1st round picks to make small contributions along the way a good idea for now, and the future?

:dontknow: I'm an optimist... I believe there's a way to get the "negative" posters what they want and still have a winning team, and in fact, a better team... maybe plugging Wright in costs us 2 games or so. Maybe that even costs us the playoffs this season - who knows. But maybe getting Wright some experience makes him useful, and fresh-legged, for the playoffs. A hustling, long, inside PF for the stretch run that can rebound, and tip, as good as our current C. Someone who we could switch w/ Biedrins, and play Biedrins' role w/rebounding and defense, w/Al sliding to C. We remain a running team, and keep a somewhat strong rebounder in the game...

Its frustrating to hear that Nellie "does the best he can with what he has"... because its completely not true. He does the best his ideas will allow, and tries to push them even farther. And considering his 5 coaching stops - they flat out don't work.
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Post#473 » by Mylie10 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:48 pm

510Reggae wrote:I'm not picketing the franchise... I've got a receipt to prove it :D

I just completely disagree with the way they are doing business, and the way they are selling it to us... are we really trying to win now? Do we have to play guys like Mbenga, Croshere, Watson, and Pietrus to be better? Isn't investing in our 1st round picks to make small contributions along the way a good idea for now, and the future?

:dontknow: I'm an optimist... I believe there's a way to get the "negative" posters what they want and still have a winning team, and in fact, a better team... maybe plugging Wright in costs us 2 games or so. Maybe that even costs us the playoffs this season - who knows. But maybe getting Wright some experience makes him useful, and fresh-legged, for the playoffs. A hustling, long, inside PF for the stretch run that can rebound, and tip, as good as our current C. Someone who we could switch w/ Biedrins, and play Biedrins' role w/rebounding and defense, w/Al sliding to C. We remain a running team, and keep a somewhat strong rebounder in the game...

Its frustrating to hear that Nellie "does the best he can with what he has"... because its completely not true. He does the best his ideas will allow, and tries to push them even farther. And considering his 5 coaching stops - they flat out don't work.


I hear you and a great post.
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Post#474 » by floppymoose » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:38 pm

510Reggae wrote:Enough for now... but I'll tell ya, the sabermetrics and statheads from every sport, none of those teams are the champs...


Good post, but...

myth: folks who appreciate statistical efforts to measure basketball players and strategies = folks who don't understand your points above.

There is no reason why I can't enjoy and understand both, and their limitations.

Statistical approaches frequently fail to capture what we grasp with our common sense and native basketball reasoning. But then just when you think they are useless, you find something odd in the stats that, when you think about, actually expands your basketball understanding rather than simply being at odds with it.
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Post#475 » by FNQ » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:41 pm

floppymoose wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Good post, but...

myth: folks who appreciate statistical efforts to measure basketball players and strategies = folks who don't understand your points above.

There is no reason why I can't enjoy and understand both, and their limitations.

Statistical approaches frequently fail to capture what we grasp with our common sense and native basketball reasoning. But then just when you think they are useless, you find something odd in the stats that, when you think about, actually expands your basketball understanding rather than simply being at odds with it.


Didn't mean to imply both of ya were strictly statheads, but more a general warning for others reading it that all stats, independent of solid analysis to go with it, are pretty meaningless. I completely agree that stats are 100% complimentary to eyewitness analysis...
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Post#476 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:01 pm

floppymoose wrote:Statistical approaches frequently fail to capture what we grasp with our common sense and native basketball reasoning. But then just when you think they are useless, you find something odd in the stats that, when you think about, actually expands your basketball understanding rather than simply being at odds with it.


New ideas scare me.

Let's burn him.
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Post#477 » by Thugleavy34 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:06 am

Stoning would be more effective. No need to worry about the stench of boiling flesh.
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Post#478 » by Twinkie defense » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:57 am

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