ImageImage

Incorrect assumption about Kohl & "lame duck"?

Moderators: MickeyDavis, paulpressey25

GrandAdmiralDan
RealGM
Posts: 15,159
And1: 1,440
Joined: Jul 24, 2004
Location: New Berlin, WI (Milwaukee)
Contact:
     

Incorrect assumption about Kohl & "lame duck"? 

Post#1 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:18 am

I don't want to talk about any specific potential trades in this thread, but I do want to talk about an assumption that seems to be prevalent around here.

That assumption is that our current General Manager Larry Harris (GM in title, anyway) would not be allowed by our owner and President of Basketball Operations, Senator Herb Kohl to make any type of significant trade since Harris is in the last year of his contract and might be fired at some point during or after this season, perhaps as the "patsy", "scape goat", etc., or I suppose actually fired because it is warranted (if that is your opinion).

I've seen it argued here that Harris would need to get a contract extension before being allowed to make any significant trade, to eliminate his "lame duck" status first.

That may be the case, but I really do not agree, and I base that on the sum of the communications and observations I've engaged in over the past couple years regarding our front office.

Pretty much everyone with any type of experience in the world of NBA front offices is aware of the dysfunctional front office situation we have here with Herb Kohl, his VPs, lawyers, and cronies, etc.

Larry Harris is viewed in a positive light as a result of this as well as some of the decisions he's been allowed to make or has tried to make only to have those decisions vetoed. He doesn't want to try and make any kind of "desperation move" to try and "save his job" or anything like that (not that he really has that option, exactly). His position is that he would prefer to make moves that are in the best interest of the franchise, because Harris may very well end up remaining as our GM and he'd rather not screw things up for the near future of this franchise just to delay being a scape goat here. He figures that if the lack of that type of move ends up contributing to him getting fired this year, then so be it, because he can just move on to a franchise with a less dysfunctional power structure.

The audience Kohl has primarily concerned himself with is the broader audience of Bucks' fans. The kind that get their Bucks info from the flagship radio station of 620AM, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, and the 60 seconds of Bucks coverage (if that) that the local news broadcast provides on a daily basis. Those people don't read RealGM. Those people don't listen to what Sparky and Gery Woelfel say on WSSP. Those people don't know the names of Ron Walter, Mike Burr, etc. and don't understand how involved Kohl is with decisions made for basketball operations. We have finally had one article recently from Michael Hunt that even touches on this topic, and he didn't even get very specific at all. And it was just one article. Senator Kohl can fire Larry Harris and make him a scapegoat for those people. Those that have concerns about the roster? Kohl can blame those concerns on Harris. Those that have concerns about Coach K? Kohl can blame those concerns on Harris. Kohl will basically be saying "Sorry about that, Bucks' fans. But I fired the guy that is responsible for all of that bad stuff, so please give us another chance here."
And many people won't realize they are being duped yet again by the man who has been duping them for most of the 20+ years he has owned the team.

It is not an issue of whether Harris is a "lame duck" or not. It is Kohl and his inner circle who will decide what trades to make or not make, not Harris. Sure, Harris can present his case for a trade to Ron Walter, and Ron Walter can take it to the next step. And if Kohl is interested in having something specific done, he will get the message to Harris via one of the lawyers, just like normal. Why would it matter to Kohl what Harris' status is?

If Kohl decides (via either of the methods in the last paragraph) that a trade should be made, he will direct Harris to make it. Harris could refuse to do it and try and force Kohl to either fire him or let Harris make his own decision, but he's never done that before and likely would yet again just follow Kohl's orders. But this would continue a method of operation that Kohl has engaged in. If Kohl decides a trade should be made, he can have Harris make that trade. Then he can find out how that trade works out as far as the rest of this season goes. If the trade works out well in the short term and we make the playoffs, then Kohl will keep Harris around. If the trade doesn't work out well for the short term and we don't make the playoffs, Kohl can just pile that on Harris too as the scapegoat when firing Harris when the season is over. Then Kohl gets to be the good guy, fire Harris, and hire a new GM to come in and fix things.

Why would Kohl fire Harris, put a new GM (even just someone like Dave Babcock) in place, and then have that GM execute a trade that may not result in the Bucks making the playoffs this year? That makes it more difficult to blame that potential failure on someone else. Kohl has an extreme aversion to being negatively perceived (by the larger audience that I mentioned before). Kohl has set things up like that before, and if he decides a trade should be made prior to the trading deadline, I fully expect him to set things up like that again.


Anyway...
The assumption that I refer to in the thread title really makes me think of Tom Hagen in The Godfather. He was so concerned with Tattaglia (Larry Harris) but, as Hagen came to realize when Don Corleone shared with him a revelation, it was Barzini (Kohl) all along.
Watch the video clip

And I'm sure Epi enjoys the comparison of Harris with a pimp who has less power than he appears to :lol:
97-98
Nick Van Exel (LAL) on defending the Stockton-Malone pick-and-roll: "Yeah,
I got a way to defend it. Bring a bat to the game and kill one of them."
NeedsMoreCheese
RealGM
Posts: 43,042
And1: 8,369
Joined: Apr 22, 2002
   

 

Post#2 » by NeedsMoreCheese » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:57 am

God I wish someone at MJS had the balls to print this on the frontpage of the sports section. I mean, i've always sort of assumed this was the case (and thus why i think calling for Harris to be fired is pretty stupid because the reasons they give dont have any real backing to them), but it's nice to have some confirmation on this. Maybe someone could get some blackmail on one of those dudes in charge at MJS and make them print this? :pray:
User avatar
th87
RealGM
Posts: 11,565
And1: 13,527
Joined: Dec 04, 2005

 

Post#3 » by th87 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:22 am

Larry Harris against Santino would be a good fight.

But yeah, something needs to be done about this structure. How can we possibly expect this team to do anything if nothing changes? It'll be like throwing our money away year after year. Investing ourselves emotionally to an inevitable result.

Is there anything anyone could do to get Kohl to sell? What if that public opinion tarnishes?

And another thing. Most people within the organization seems to like LH, except FBF. Does anyone know the story there?
User avatar
Sigra
RealGM
Posts: 15,401
And1: 1,446
Joined: Sep 08, 2005
Location: Aug 02, 2002
     

 

Post#4 » by Sigra » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:20 am

Yup. Just like I thought.

But there are people who read RealGM, listen to what Sparky and Gery Woelfel say on WSSP and understand how involved Kohl is with decisions made for basketball operations AND STILL BLAME HARRIS and want him to be fired. People like our own europa for example.
User avatar
beyond_the_arc
Starter
Posts: 2,150
And1: 53
Joined: Jul 10, 2005

 

Post#5 » by beyond_the_arc » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:32 am

Dan, who does the cover man (Garry D'umbass' Howard) represent in your Godfather story board?
Postby SubyWill on Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:53 pm

Magic fan checking in, holy **** Harris is legit. Your GM should be fired.


No ****.
User avatar
trwi7
RealGM
Posts: 111,685
And1: 27,269
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: Aussie bias
         

 

Post#6 » by trwi7 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:02 pm

Man reading GAD's post makes me think I need some alcohol and drugs. Mainly alcohol, drugs are cool too. If anybody wants to drop some off at my house that would be swell.
stellation wrote:What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."


I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.
Andrew34r
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,831
And1: 2
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Location: AZ
     

 

Post#7 » by Andrew34r » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:17 pm

Image
smooth 'lil balla
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,964
And1: 8
Joined: Nov 20, 2003

 

Post#8 » by smooth 'lil balla » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:41 pm

Sigra wrote:Yup. Just like I thought.

But there are people who read RealGM, listen to what Sparky and Gery Woelfel say on WSSP and understand how involved Kohl is with decisions made for basketball operations AND STILL BLAME HARRIS and want him to be fired. People like our own europa for example.


I've been calling for it too.

I just don't know. I've loved Harris, but this team that he's put together, with or without Kohl's involvement, is absolutely horrible.

Pretty much every team in the league right now has a brighter future, even with Bogut and Yi.
smooth 'lil balla
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,964
And1: 8
Joined: Nov 20, 2003

Re: Incorrect assumption about Kohl & "lame duck&qu 

Post#9 » by smooth 'lil balla » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:44 pm

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:It is not an issue of whether Harris is a "lame duck" or not. It is Kohl and his inner circle who will decide what trades to make or not make, not Harris. Sure, Harris can present his case for a trade to Ron Walter, and Ron Walter can take it to the next step. And if Kohl is interested in having something specific done, he will get the message to Harris via one of the lawyers, just like normal. Why would it matter to Kohl what Harris' status is?


Can you say with 100% certainty this is how it works? If so, my god, why would Harris even want the job?
msiris
RealGM
Posts: 10,982
And1: 2,249
Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Location: Central Wisconsin

 

Post#10 » by msiris » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:33 pm

But isn't Harris the one who resigned Gadz and signed Simmons. I know Kohl has his hands in it too much, but Harris is accountable to a degree.
Ride the tank
msiris
RealGM
Posts: 10,982
And1: 2,249
Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Location: Central Wisconsin

 

Post#11 » by msiris » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:34 pm

Sigra wrote:Yup. Just like I thought.

But there are people who read RealGM, listen to what Sparky and Gery Woelfel say on WSSP and understand how involved Kohl is with decisions made for basketball operations AND STILL BLAME HARRIS and want him to be fired. People like our own europa for example.
Kind of tacky to single out just one poster.
Ride the tank
User avatar
unklchuk
Head Coach
Posts: 6,141
And1: 94
Joined: Jun 27, 2005

 

Post#12 » by unklchuk » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:41 pm

"Kind of tacky to single out just one poster."

Sigra blends attributes of angels with devices of the devil...

He's not content to just look at the drink, or sip it. He must stir it.
AFAIK, IDKM
msiris
RealGM
Posts: 10,982
And1: 2,249
Joined: Jul 25, 2005
Location: Central Wisconsin

 

Post#13 » by msiris » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:56 pm

unklchuk wrote:"Kind of tacky to single out just one poster."

Sigra blends attributes of angels with devices of the devil...

He's not content to just look at the drink, or sip it. He must stir it.
:lol: Only you Unk
Ride the tank
User avatar
InsideOut
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,757
And1: 535
Joined: Aug 22, 2006

 

Post#14 » by InsideOut » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:41 pm

msiris wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Kind of tacky to single out just one poster.


I
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

 

Post#15 » by europa » Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:50 pm

Sigra wrote:Yup. Just like I thought.

But there are people who read RealGM, listen to what Sparky and Gery Woelfel say on WSSP and understand how involved Kohl is with decisions made for basketball operations AND STILL BLAME HARRIS and want him to be fired. People like our own europa for example.


Yup. While I understand how dysfunctional the situation is and the role Kohl has played I'm not going to give Harris a pass for the mistakes he has made that have also contributed to the mess this team is in. Ignoring those mistakes and absolving Harris of any responsibility is short-sighted in my opinion. I've always been quite clear about assigning blame to the proper part of this team's management - be it Kohl (and his cronies), Harris or both. What needs to be understood is that each of these aspects has played a part in where this team is at and has been at.

Kind of tacky to single out just one poster.


That's putting it mildly. Plenty of people here have expressed vocal opinions about a variety of subjects and don't get called out repeatedly for it. I do but that's OK, I can take it. I pretty much expect that to be the case around here these days so it never surprises me. :)
Nothing will not break me.
xTitan
RealGM
Posts: 17,135
And1: 2,283
Joined: Mar 03, 2006
     

 

Post#16 » by xTitan » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:29 pm

Well Gad I will tell you what I heard recently. Harris has gone to Kohl or whatever his first channel is, with at least a few strong possibilities, not sure if all were on the table but at least one was and he was shot down so fast that, in typical Kohl fashion, seems to be a message sent loud and clear. We both know that almost every message sent from Kohl is mixed and thats why this organization rivals the Clippers as the worst in this league.
midranger
RealGM
Posts: 39,420
And1: 11,225
Joined: May 12, 2002

 

Post#17 » by midranger » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Anyway you can hint around details titan?
Please reconsider your animal consumption.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

 

Post#18 » by europa » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Any ideas what those possibilities were?
Nothing will not break me.
midranger
RealGM
Posts: 39,420
And1: 11,225
Joined: May 12, 2002

 

Post#19 » by midranger » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:32 pm

Jake Voskuhl for Garnett. Kohl didn't want the salary.
Please reconsider your animal consumption.
User avatar
trwi7
RealGM
Posts: 111,685
And1: 27,269
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: Aussie bias
         

 

Post#20 » by trwi7 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:33 pm

midranger wrote:Jake Voskuhl for Garnett. Kohl didn't want the salary.


Gadz for Dwight Howard. Kohl didn't like Howard having a child out of wedlock.
stellation wrote:What's the difference between Gery Woelful and this glass of mineral water? The mineral water actually has a source."


I Hate Manure wrote:We look to be awful next season without Beasley.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks