Incorrect assumption about Kohl & "lame duck"?

midranger · Post #41 » by **midranger** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:25 pm

Gadz?
Second round picks that you didn't like?
Had his hand forced by Kohl in TJ for CV?

That's about it as far as I can tell.

europa · Post #42 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:33 pm

He has drafted poorly in the second round. It's actually been beyond poor. There isn't a single second-round pick he's made that has worked out. The jury is still out on Sessions obviously. But his draft work in the second round has been putrid and a small-market team absolutely must find a role player or two in the second round. That's essential. But Harris has failed badly there. The Gadz signing was a huge mistake. The decision to let Pachulia walk for nothing was a mistake. The Welsh trade was a gigantic mistake. I didn't like the Ford trade. I didn't like the Magloire to Portland trade (some would say the decision to trade for Magloire in the first place was a mistake though I would disagree). I didn't like re-signing Dez. I didn't like the length of the contract given to Bell.

To the best of my knowledge, none of those moves were impacted by Kohl in terms of him demanding they be made. If GAD knows otherwise, please correct me and I'll amend my statement.

trwi7 · Post #43 » by **trwi7** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:35 pm

europa wrote:I didn't like the Magloire to Portland trade (some would say the decision to trade for Magloire in the first place was a mistake though I would disagree).

If Harris had it his way this trade never would have occured.

Post #44 » by **ReasonablySober** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:35 pm

If all you can do is piss and moan about 2nd round picks and roster filler not panning out, I'd say Harris has done a fine job all things considered.

midranger · Post #45 » by **midranger** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:36 pm

Welsch a gigantic mistake? Wow. Talk about gigantic hyperbole.

europa · Post #46 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:38 pm

DrugBust wrote:If all you can do is piss and moan about 2nd round picks and roster filler not panning out, I'd say Harris has done a fine job all things considered.

I think his percentage of good moves to bad moves is heading in the wrong direction lately and that's a concern in my opinion. It's one of the reasons why this team is in the mess it's in as far as I'm concerned. So yea, I do have a problem with that.

Welsch a gigantic mistake?

He was one of the worst players in the league when he was with the Bucks and hurt them repeatedly when he was on the court. Yea, you're right. That was a great move.

midranger · Post #47 » by **midranger** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:39 pm

DrugBust wrote:If all you can do is piss and moan about 2nd round picks and roster filler not panning out, I'd say Harris has done a fine job all things considered.

Bingo. He's done very well IMO, and could have done great if not for Kohl.

He inherited a talentless team, picked to to finish dead last. In the past 4 years, he somehow managed to get them to 2 playoffs, while simultaneously improving the young talent base immensly.

If he was allowed any autonomy, the Bucks would be a 45-50 win team right now with Bogut-Boozer-Simmons-Redd-TJ.

Post #48 » by **paulpressey25** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:41 pm

I'm trying to decipher what GAD is saying here.....

Is it that it really doesn't matter whether Harris is here or not. If Kohl wants a trade before the deadline we'll get one. If he doesn't we won't?

Or can you take what GAD is saying and move one more chess piece on the board. Kohl will make the move he wants to make before the deadline. Then if that move doesn't look like it will work over the last 30-games, Kohl can fire Harris at the end of the season and blame the move on him?

It would be especially helpful for Kohl to have a public scapegoat in Harris if the decision is made to trade Redd or Mo, since those are two "good guys" that Kohl likes having represent the Bucks with that other 95% of the fanbase that GAD references. So if it backfires, it's on Larry.

midranger · Post #49 » by **midranger** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:42 pm

europa wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

He was one of the worst players in the league when he was with the Bucks and hurt them repeatedly when he was on the court. Yea, you're right. That was a great move.

Cleveland had traded a 1st round pick for him about 4 months before we got him.

We traded a second round pick for an expiring vet in an attempt to help us make the playoffs. Obviously, he wasn't very good, but a spot needed filling. Harris did it.

Certainly not a "great move," no one said that. You said "gigantic mistake" as if the world ended when that trade went down.

europa · Post #50 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:44 pm

I have an idea, let me ask the following question: In the last two years, what moves has Harris made that have clearly made the team better?

I don't think drafting Yi has clearly made the team better but I do think it was a good pick and Harris deserves praise for making it. But that's all I have (Edited to add - I like the Sessions pick too). What am I missing? Please enlighten me to the moves Harris has made that have clearly made this an improved team.

If someone can provide that list and sway me, I'll remove my sig and I'll back off my criticisms of the work Larry Harris has done of late.

Who's game?

midranger · Post #51 » by **midranger** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:46 pm

Trading Simmons and Yi for Marion would have fit the criteria.

trwi7 · Post #52 » by **trwi7** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:47 pm

midranger wrote:Trading Simmons and Yi for Marion would have fit the criteria.

europa · Post #53 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:48 pm

midranger wrote:Trading Simmons and Yi for Marion would have fit the criteria.

That wasn't a Harris move; it was proposed by the Suns. But the last time I checked, that move didn't occur.

So I'll keep waiting.

Nebula1 · Post #54 » by **Nebula1** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:49 pm

Marion is so overrated and would have ruined this team. Yi as an investment is much better.

midranger · Post #55 » by **midranger** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:50 pm

You have Harris pinned as one of the worst GMs in the league. Show me where in the past two years Harris destroyed a quality team and their future.

No one is saying that he's done a great job here. People are saying he's done a fine job given the situation in which he is forced to operate. That "fine" job could have been "good or great" if allowed sufficient autonomy.

Funny that your sources haven't told you how highly regarded Harris is around the league. Also funny that you don't typically respond to that when GAD brings it up.

europa · Post #56 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:54 pm

midranger wrote:
Funny that your sources haven't told you how highly regarded Harris is around the league. Also funny that you don't typically respond to that when GAD brings it up.

That's because I've acknowledged that numerous times in the past. What's funny is how you keep ignoring things I've actually said in favor of untruths you want to insist I've said. The info GAD has received about Harris' standing around the league matches up with much of what I've heard. I've heard Harris is well respected. Some question whether he's a strong GM, but everyone I've talked to acknowledges he's a smart guy who's hampered by Kohl. I've posted this numerous times before.

And I've never said Harris was one of the worst GMs in the league. I have praised him repeatedly for inheriting a mess and keeping the team afloat. I simply do not believe his recent moves have reflected the capabilities of a GM who can turn the Bucks into a contender. These are the facts of my position and they remain the facts no matter how badly you want to misrepresent them.

Anyway, back to my question - I'm still waiting.

Nebula1 · Post #57 » by **Nebula1** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:55 pm

europa wrote:I have an idea, let me ask the following question: In the last two years, what moves has Harris made that have clearly made the team better?

I don't think drafting Yi has clearly made the team better but I do think it was a good pick and Harris deserves praise for making it. But that's all I have (Edited to add - I like the Sessions pick too). What am I missing? Please enlighten me to the moves Harris has made that have clearly made this an improved team.

If someone can provide that list and sway me, I'll remove my sig and I'll back off my criticisms of the work Larry Harris has done of late.

Who's game?

Europa, do you remember what Harris started with?

I think breaking that team down to a solid rebuild point has been well done. I obviously don't like some deals, but this roster and franchise has a solid foundation to grow from, this point forward.

A steady dose of draft picks and a couple small trades and this team's long-term success is pretty well solidified, growth wise.

Bogut was the beginning, Yi was step 2 and another lottery pick will be step 3.

europa · Post #58 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:57 pm

Nebula1 wrote:Europa, do you remember what Harris started with?

Yes I do neb and see my post above where I praise Harris with the work he did given what he inherited. He gets a ton of credit from me for that. But I go back to what FormerBuckFan told me when I had a number of offline discussions with him - he told me that my faith in Harris would not be rewarded and that he wasn't the strong GM I believed him to be at one time. FBF turned out to be on the money with nearly everything he told me about Harris and the work that was to come. Unfortunately.

midranger · Post #59 » by **midranger** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:05 pm

europa wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

And I've never said Harris was one of the worst GMs in the league.

[rechecks europa's sig]

europa · Post #60 » by **europa** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:06 pm

midranger wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

[rechecks europa's sig]

If the shoe fits, Harris will need to start wearing it. That's the morale of the story there.

Still waiting.