Incorrect assumption about Kohl & "lame duck"?

[BuckSkins Fan]

Every trade or signing that the team has made can always be argued. But his decisions for the head coach position told me everything I need to know about Larry Harris.

Name any GM in the history of the league that has missed so badly with head coaches. To me, hiring a head coach is alot easier than evaluating a player. You should be able out of what, two or three tries, to get one remotely right. Harris has failed the organization, the players, and the fans, by hiring two of the most incopetent coaches I have seen. Please forgive my spelling.

Terry freakin Stotts and University of Montana Man Krystowhateveriak.
Give me a break. All credibility was lost when Paul Silas, LB, Addelman, Van Gundy, plus 150 million other better qualified individuals were out there and the absolute best he could come up with was this guy.

Larry Harris my man, you suck. Herb Kohl and his cronies, you also suck.

[th87]

Some examples of how FBF feels about Harris, and how similar europa's viewpoint is:

http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/view.a ... sessionID={D77FCA20-60E2-4639-9CF6-4DCC09EC3941}

http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/view.a ... sessionID={D77FCA20-60E2-4639-9CF6-4DCC09EC3941}&pageNo=2

http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/view.a ... sessionID={D77FCA20-60E2-4639-9CF6-4DCC09EC3941}

http://www2.jsonline.com/idealbb/view.a ... sessionID={D77FCA20-60E2-4639-9CF6-4DCC09EC3941}

Just search the JS forum for more.

But I don't mean for this to be an attack on anyone. FBF and europa are great assets to this forum.

[InsideOut]

Every trade or signing that the team has made can always be argued. But his decisions for the head coach position told me everything I need to know about Larry Harris.

Name any GM in the history of the league that has missed so badly with head coaches. To me, hiring a head coach is alot easier than evaluating a player. You should be able out of what, two or three tries, to get one remotely right. Harris has failed the organization, the players, and the fans, by hiring two of the most incopetent coaches I have seen. Please forgive my spelling.
Larry Harris my man, you suck. Herb Kohl and his cronies, you also suck.

Do we know if it was LH or Kohl that wanted these guys hired? Sorry if I missed it in this thread but if Kohl is making player moves who's to say he's not making coaching moves?

[bigzy]

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Reading this thread would be a good reason to find out why. Everything goes through Kohl and his cronies. Do you think this team would be better with Boozer or Marion?

Don't know the answer to that nor does anyone else. One thing people on here should realize is that chemistry and how the players are used is more important sometimes than talent. We can assume they would be better just as I assume last years team might have won 42 or more games without injury. I don't see how you can continually blame coaches around here and the Gm gets a free pass.......

[bigzy]

-= original quote snipped =-



Do we know if it was LH or Kohl that wanted these guys hired? Sorry if I missed it in this thread but if Kohl is making player moves who's to say he's not making coaching moves?

He also chose those putrid purple uniforms.......

[BuckFan]

I've posted a lot history about the LH era in a couple of threads and here's my breakdown of that information:

Drafts: He's drafted 5 players (Bogut, Ilysova, Noel, Yi and Session) in his 4 drafts. Overall I like the picks but think consistency and depth may have been impacted by giving up 4 other picks. Those picks would give us a much better handle on understanding his strength in scouting young talent. I guess you could include Markota here too and that was an obvious bust.

Coaches: He's had 3 coaches (Porter, Stotts and Larry K) in his 4.5 year with Milwaukee. All 3 inexperienced as head coaches in the NBA, all 3 coaching dramatically changing teams and we don't know how much say Kohl has in the hiring process. My biggest gripe here is that outside of Porter's 1st season, the strengths of the coach and personnel never seem to match up properly.

Trades: He's made 11 deals that I can recount. Trading for Van Horn, ZaZa, Gaines & two 2nd rounders, Booth, Henderson, Welsch, Magloire, Markota, Villanueva, Blake, Skinner, Ha, Patterson, Boykins and Hodge. He gave up in those trades Tim Thomas, Przybilla, a 2nd rounder, James & Hamilton, Van Horn, a 2nd rounder, D. Mason & 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder, TJ Ford, Magloire, Joe Smith and Blake. 17 players received, 4 re-traded (Van Horn, 2nd round pick, Magloire and Blake), 7 worthless (Gaines, Booth, Henderson, Welsch, Markota, Ha and Hodges), 5 moderate help (ZaZa, Villanueva, Skinner, Ruben and Boykins). I don't think you can say Larry has scored well here.

Bigger Signings: The deals that I would consider significant in his tenure were extending D. Mason his first year, re-signing Gadz, re-signing Redd, signing Simmons and re-signing Mo & Bell this year. In hindsight you might say he overpaid in each and everyone of these deals but I also think he's handcuffed to some extent based on the market. Redd and Mo were right based on the circumstances but the Mo deal stings because he's not a good fit at PG along side Redd. Simmons and Gadz were a bit knee jerk and too expensive. He's also had some bad luck in the Simmons deal. Bell has proven to backfire at this point.

Smaller Signing: Skinner, Strickland and Jones his first season. Mike James, Hamilton and Mo his second season. Bell his third season. Greer last season. Voskuhl, D Mason, Ivey and Ruffin this season. This is where Larry has shined in my opinion. It got us to the playoffs in '03/04 and kept us alive the next season with Ford down. I also think this year's crop of ho hum signings has proven that Larry has a knack for these type of players.

My conclusion: Limit the trades, save your draft picks, overpay talent on an extremely limited basis and stick to finding diamonds in the rough. Hire a coach that fits your talent. Sign talent that fits your existing pieces.

[trwi7]

Every trade or signing that the team has made can always be argued. But his decisions for the head coach position told me everything I need to know about Larry Harris.

Name any GM in the history of the league that has missed so badly with head coaches. To me, hiring a head coach is alot easier than evaluating a player. You should be able out of what, two or three tries, to get one remotely right. Harris has failed the organization, the players, and the fans, by hiring two of the most incopetent coaches I have seen. Please forgive my spelling.

Terry freakin Stotts and University of Montana Man Krystowhateveriak.
Give me a break. All credibility was lost when Paul Silas, LB, Addelman, Van Gundy, plus 150 million other better qualified individuals were out there and the absolute best he could come up with was this guy.

Larry Harris my man, you suck. Herb Kohl and his cronies, you also suck.

Wasn't Stotts a Kohl hire?

[midranger]

If we know ANYTHINg about the Bucks's front office, it's that Kohl does all the hiring (and likely firing) of coaches.

[BuckSkins Fan]

I don`t know who hired who. With a track record of Terry Porter, Terry Stotts and Larry K, no matter if it was Kohl, or LH, they should have the crap kicked out of them and never be allowed to make another decision the rest of their life, because these three are pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

[bigzy]

I don`t know who hired who. With a track record of Terry Porter, Terry Stotts and Larry K, no matter if it was Kohl, or LH, they should have the crap kicked out of them and never be allowed to make another decision the rest of their life, because these three are pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

And you base that on your vast knowledge of NBA coaching?? Don't think their record had anything to do with the personel given them???

[europa]

It's hard to judge Harris without fully knowning the extent of Kohl's control, and all of the exact deals Harris wasn't allowed to do that were on the table because of it. Judging solely on what has transpired, I would break it down like this:

Good Moves:

1. Drafting Bogut (people will argue about Paul and Deron here, but the reality is Bogut is now playing like a #1 pick, and we had Ford and Williams at the time of the draft, considering how hard it is to find good bigs, can't fault him here).

2. Drafting Yi: easily the best player there at 6 in this past draft

3. Drafting Sessions: obviously he hasn't played a game in the NBA yet, but judging by his dominance in the NBDL, it appears he will at least be a solid NBA PG.

4. Signing Mo Williams to his original 3 year/5M deal. Got a steal here, in my opinion.

5. Re-signing Redd. Now, I know most will disagree here, but had we let Redd get away I think it would have sent a terrible message about the Bucks being able to retain their own talent.

6. Re-signing Mo Williams. Some will argue here as well, but we've already hashed out that Mo is at least an average starting PG and is making around league average.

7. Signing Ruben. Guy played very well for us given his cost.

Thank you Luke. See, that wasn't so hard was it? I'd list the Mo re-signing with Kohl, however, since all of the info we have at this time strongly suggests that entire decision was handled entirely by Kohl's cronies.

So what we have is one move (Yi) and maybe two (Yi and Sessions) which Harris has made in the last two years which have been good moves. That happens to be the ones I listed as well so what's being lost in the endless bickering and dodging of the simple question posed is that no one was able to come up with a list of moves made in the last two years that Harris has made which have clearly improved the team.

The bottom line? My position is that Harris has lost of standing in my eyes in the last two years due to the fact (in my opinion) that nearly every move he has made has not helped the team improve. I have been told this position is incorrect and that Harris actually doing a good and maybe even a great job? The evidence to support this?

Drafting Yi and maybe Sessions.

That's it.

Wow. That's a quite list of moves without a doubt. That sure swayed me all right. I guess I'll just have to look past the team's dismal record last season and its dismal record again this season and look at that incredibly lengthy list of moves Harris has made and change my position entirely.

And midranger, if you think it's amusing that I've gone from having a lot of belief in Harris to having serious issues with him, perhaps we should find some old threads of yours on here where you praised Redd and compared them to your posts about them now. Your hypocrisy never fails to amuse me.

[midranger]

Its fine that you don't like Harris. I know why you don't, you know why you don't, everyone knows why you don't. You're not a hypocrite for doing so. You just have some sour grapes over TJ being traded. Ironically LH did not want to trade him.

Anyway, I'd appreciate the laugh it you'd difg up those Redd threads. A time when I was naive like you remain.

[Debit One]

Question for GAD (or others):

If LH is well respected around the league, and could land another job, why would he ever stay in Milwaukee when his contract expires?

Bumping my own post in search of opinions on this.

[europa]

Its fine that you don't like Harris. I know why you don't, you know why you don't, everyone knows why you don't. You're not a hypocrite for doing so. You just have some sour grapes over TJ being traded. Ironically LH did not want to trade him.

Anyway, I'd appreciate the laugh it you'd difg up those Redd threads. A time when I was naive like you remain.

I'm anything but naive but thanks for the laugh. And you're right, I do know why my belief in Harris has waned. I've provided a lengthy list of reasons to support my position. If you or anyone else chooses to ignore all of them and incorrectly focus only on one move, there's not much I can do about it. Why anyone would want to ignore the facts and instead create a fictional position to attribute to someone else is beyond me.

[midranger]

So it was the Jiri Welsch for a 2nd rounder that made you go from "One of the best in the nba" to "atrocious."

[europa]

No, it was the large number of moves made in the last two years as I've stated repeatedly. The Ford trade was just one of many unfortunately.

[NeedsMoreCheese]

Yet you still think the Simmons move was good. What kind of drugs are you on and did you bring enough to share with the rest of us?

[beyond_the_arc]

Since I have no personal knowledge on who did what and who proposed this trade and who nixed what; I will gladly blame them both.

I read in a story recently (I'm sorry, I can't remember specifics) that stated that this current bucks team was LH's team, the team he wanted and put together. PUKE!

It is also quite common knowledge (as GAD referred to) that Kohl is a meddlesome owner who doesn't allow a GM to do the job. PUKE AGAIN!

I'll blame the entire front office for this debacle, I'm not going to argue what I don't personally know; there is way more than enough blame to go around....

Last point, I think that the senator will continue to hamstring LH this season because if he starts feeling pressure, he will need someone to throw under the bus and take the heat off himself! After all, he is a politician........

Herbs feeling the pressure to make himself look good again. He did something at halftime today that I haven't seen him do in a very long time. Stand in the middle of the concourse and pose for pictures and autograph signings. I had to go out of my way to not be touched by evil.

[midranger]

I realize it's been a tough month for you europa.

The Bucks are playing much better ball with Redd on the bench.

The Raps are playing much better ball with TJ on the bench.


Your last agendas left are hating Harris and loving Bogut. I'll gladly jump on the latter train.

[europa]

It's been a great month for me actually. Work is good, personal life is good. Things are going very well. I'm always happy when the Bucks play well. That's because I'm a Bucks fan. The only thing I care about with Ford is that he stays healthy and makes a smart move with regard to his future.

But you keep right on trying to pass off fabrications as facts. I'll stick with the truth. It works better.