Is Caron Butler a "Franchise" Player?

[Double Y]

Raptor fan here. I was just trolling in your "Flame Wars and insults" thread (which, BTW, is a pretty amusing and ingenius thread) and one of the exchanges led me to wonder if Caron Butler is a "franchise" player?

Throughout the history of NBA championship teams, almost every team had at least one 50 Greatest NBA Players of All Time or someone likely to become one. The only exception in recent history is the Detroit Pistons, with Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Wallace and Wallace, who're all boderline perennial All-Stars.

Going along that line of thinking, Washington will need a franchise player if it wants to be a championship calibre team. I think Jamison and Arenas have already maxed out their potential. Butler is a well-deserving All-Star this year, but the question is, is he a "franchise" player and not just a very good All-Star. If the Wizards want to build a team like the Pistons, first of all, very few teams that go 5 deep wins championships and second of all Daniels, Stevenson and Haywood leaves much to be desired compared to Billups, Hamilton and Wallace. Even if Arenas comes back, Washington is still two short.

I just want to get a gauge on what Wizard fans think of Butler. Can the Wizards get to the finals with Butler, or does he need a stronger, much stronger, supporting cast? I've just read through the Caron Butler appreciation thread (I like to do my research) but I didn't find any clear answers there.

[tkunit]

Arenas is the franchise player.

[gowiz999]

Arenas maxed out?? Huh? IBTL

[go'stags]

Well, most of us would disagree with you that Arenas has reached his ceiling. He is a year or 2 younger than Butler, and more talented.

Arenas is our franchise player.

All Wiz fans love Caron. But he isn't a franchise player IMO, at least in that he can be an unquestioned number one option on a top team. Hes a great number 2 player though, and yes we can get to the finals with him in a starring role.

BTW, Daniels is a very good PG, especially for a backup, Stevenson has developed into a shutdown defender this year, and Haywood is one of the better defensive centers in the league.

We also have a few young guys that can be very good players in Andray Blatche, Pecherov, Dominic McGuire, and Nick Young.

But Arenas is our franchise player, with Caron being a top tier second option.

[Double Y]

Arenas maxed out?? Huh? IBTL

Wow...you're harsh. Surprised you'd think thinking that Arenas has maxed out automatically deserves to get locked. Arenas is born in 1982 and he's 26 years old (an age considered to be at or entering his prime).

His best ppg season is 29.3 in '05-'06, apg season is 6.3 in '02-'03, RPG is 4.7 in '02-'03, SPG is 2.1 this year, and MPG is 42.3 in '05-'06. Nobody is saying he's regressing, and those are all very gaudy #s, but if you think he's going to get even better and post up even better #s, he's not leaving himself a lot of room for improvement. Sure he'll probably become more crafty and may improve his defense, but I don't think it's a stretch to say he's maxed out, and what you've seen is what you'll get, especially considering his recent injury problems.

And dispite all that, I don't see him as Top 50 Greatest NBA of All Time. You may beg to differ.

Either way, this is not meant to be a discussion on the relative merits of Arenas. I don't think Wizards win championship with just him, but that's just my opinion. I'm more curious how much you value Butler, especially in comparison to Arenas and Jamison.

[fishercob]

Thanks for stopping in Double Y.

Caron could be a franchise player, depending on the franchise. I agree with stags in that he's probably not the alpha player on a championship team, but he doesn't need to be.

And interesting that you bring up the Pistons, b/c I see the Wiz with the potential to be that type of team -- with lots of very good players, but not MJ, Duncan, Hakeem, etc.

The Wiz don't need to fit in to any formula of how anyone else has won a title. The rules have changed, times have changed, etc; the Wiz (and Raps and whomever else) can draw whatever helps them from others'' formula to a ring. But bottom line is that they're going to have to make their own path.

And Gilbert hasn't maxed out yet, either. Scary, right?

[Donkey McDonkerton]

Arenas hasnt come close to maxing out his potential....just by maturing he is going to be even better.

[doclinkin]

I agree with the premise that a team can't win the Finals without a transcendent player-- a consensus best player in the draft, in the right year. And sadly the Wiz screwed the pooch in their only top pick and had the ill-fortune to draft in a year where Kwame Brown was the purported top talent.. Without a true #1 overall talent the only other example of a team winning the whole thing was a near-perfect example of team and scheme. With perhaps the best match-ups mind in the game directing the action. (And a roster stocked with ex-Wiz' high draft picks...)

At this point all teams who haven't won the lottery are looking at one of two models: stockpile high draft pick talent and try to steal a disgruntled superstar (Miami, Boston); or the only hope for good teams: grow your own talent, find a good marriage of scheme and roster, draft smart and make clever (non-blockbuster) trades.

Essentially the Detroit success gave hope to good teams everywhere-- though it's entirely possible it's a false hope. Take nothing away from Detroit but probably the key factor in that DET championship was the feud and pointless bad chemistry between the Laker's two surefire HOF-ers.

Still, the case for the Wiz? Any hope?

Well, Wiz fans rightly take exception to the dismissal of Gilbert Arenas as a player who has maxed out his talent. Discounting his two injury years he has improved in key categories every year he's been in the league, and shows up as a statistical oddity inasmuch as his efficiency doesn't tend to drop off with higher usage. For all that he gets knocked as a ballhog I can't think of any primary scorer/ballhandler who has been able to perennially carry two players to All-star level stats each year. Antawn, Larry Hughes, Caron Butler. When Gil is in the line-up the scoring efficiency of players next to him goes up, not the other way around.

Who else carries twin 20 ppg scorers next to their 20+ scoring average. multi-MVP South African Steve Nash sometimes. Who else?

Pretty good company anyway.

The knock on Gilbert that has any accuracy has been his porous & distractible attention to defense. This gap in his game has been so glaring because of his occasional ability to dial-up stifling smothering D. In fact on the Olympic team his line-up was noted in practice as basically airtight, impossible to score against. And this while faced up on All-star opponents.

(Otherwise his talents were underutilized in Koach K's scheme. Gil was asked to play the role of spot-up shooter, ignoring his best strength of forcing fouls on the opposition by attacking the paint and bigs. Shotblockers like Emeka Okafor say they don't try to block Gil because he actually attacks them with his body to draw the foul. Likes the contact).

Where there is room for improvement, and ability, and work ethic, it's no reach to assume a probable improvement in this aspect of a player's game. Just makes sense. Especially considering the jump in the D of a notable terrible defender like Antawn Jamison in this year's scheme.

The second area where Gil's game has fallen short of his potential is a bit less tangible: leadership. He's shirked it, prefers to play loose and fast, plays best when he is having fun. (Albeit 'fun' with a laser-focus of concentration and competitive fire). Refused captainship with the quote "Coach, sometimes even I don't believe the things I say..."

And this is where the title question gets answered. There's no question, now especially, where the emotional backbone and strength of the team lies. Caron Butler's addition has changed the attitude of the team to a feisty firey never-back-down attitude. Doesn't always translate to wins, maybe... Milwaukee... but there's no questioning the toughness. Attitude.

Better still Caron plays best as a tier two player. A glue guy. He racks rebounds, steals, free throws -- and will defer most of the game if his points aren't needed. When they are? he steps up. No stat measures mental toughness better than FT shooting. Nobody is defending you, it's just you and your form and a hoop. And nothing else needs to be said beyond this fact, as of today Caron has hit 70 free throws in a row. Best in the L.

If the Wiz make it to the postseason, if Gil makes it back healthy, if we can maintain our decent Defense and improve our offensive efficiency, well I wouldn't bet against the team's ability to get hot and surprise a few teams. The Wiz have shown stretches of ungodly efficiency in the past, if not un-precedented, then 'historical' in the hyperbolic parlance of the Wizboard's resident weatherman ji.

Enough to cancel out the Wiz' historically terrible defense in past year. With improved D across the board would that be enough to win out the string and beat the purported 'Top-50 ever' quality players? Even without a number one number one?

Well, maybe. Especially considering the Wiz managed to end up with arguably the best player in the 2001 draft. (Not Tyson Chandler. It's either Pau Gasol or Gilbert Arenas).

In any case if you're looking at the Wiz the question is: why not? The mission sounds pretty simple: just get into the post season, then win the last game you play. Not impossible, a team does it every year. Why not us?

[doclinkin]

Ya never know. Impossible is nada. And all that. Go wiz.

[fugop]

I'd put Caron Butler at about the same level of player as Chauncey Billups, though it's not clear that Butler will perform as well under deep playoff pressure. If Billups is a franchise player, then I'd say Butler is too.

Anyway, as said above, Gil is the team's franchise player, and it's shortsighted to suggest that he's reached the limit of his potential. He's got plenty of room to work on his mental game, and right about now is when we hope it's clicking.

[LesWizerables]

Seeing Caronput the team on is shoulders last night and practically will them to victory was enough to make me think that he's got "franchise player" potential. No doubt.

[jimij]

It's ridiculous to think that Arenas is close to maxing out. I'm not saying he'll reach his potential, but there's just so much room for improvement left in his game.

I'm not saying that his scoring or gross statistics will go up over levels he's previously reached, but I do think that he can get much much better as he gains a better understanding of what makes up winning basketball especially as a PG.

[TheKingOfVa360]

Arenas is no where close to maxing out. Butler also isn't a franchise player yet because he has to perform in the playoffs.

[Wiz99]

Arenas maxed out?? Huh? IBTL

This is too harsh.

How much better do you expect him to be on offense? He's already a superstar there. No, its the other parts of his game that need improvement.

We could very well have seen Gil's peak already, if he does not improve on the defensive end (where he can be awfully lax sometimes), and if he refuses to take the mantle of leadership (which is where MJ may have been at his best, demanding that the role players around him do their job and riding them if they did not).

Unfortunately, Gil's own behavior and words suggest he's not yet committed to either fierce D or team leadership. It's still an open Q whether he'll improve.

[WizStorm]

-= original quote snipped =-



This is too harsh.

How much better do you expect him to be on offense? He's already a superstar there. No, its the other parts of his game that need improvement.

We could very well have seen Gil's peak already, if he does not improve on the defensive end (where he can be awfully lax sometimes), and if he refuses to take the mantle of leadership (which is where MJ may have been at his best, demanding that the role players around him do their job and riding them if they did not).

Unfortunately, Gil's own behavior and words suggest he's not yet committed to either fierce D or team leadership. It's still an open Q whether he'll improve.

Still you say "If he doesn't improve" ... isn't that already an admission that Gil has the capacity to improve in those areas you listed?

I think we can all agree that Gil needs to take the next step on defense and how he adjusts his game to fit the team. That fact alone means he's not "maxed out" his abilities. Offensive production isn't the factor to consider when saying someone is "maxed out", especially given just how already "superstar" great Arenas has been efficiency wise and numbers wise.

That is why I think it's a complete joke that the assumption Gil is "maxed out" as a player.

[nate33]

I think Arenas has more or less maxed out his physical gifts. He's not going to put up radically better numbers from this point forward.

Arenas still has plenty of improvement ahead of him on the mental side of the game. I can definitely see him improving his overall game considerably, even though it might not show up in the box score. I continue to think of Billups as the role model. Arenas has the potential to become a significantly better version of Billups because he has considerably more physical tools.

[hands11]

I'd say Caron can be a franchise player. Right now he is a All-Star growing into a franchise player. This is the first year we are getting a look at him being this kind of player. I think not having GA on the floor has accelerated the process for him. There was room for him to step up with his new skills and he did.

In the past, he was just Mr Consistancy.

After a summer of solid work, he extended his shooting range and it is paying off this year. He already has all the mental leadership skills and he is a leader of men and a good/great defender.

Give CB one more summer to work on his drives and one-on-one game and you have everything you need in a franchise player. Remember, CB bounced around a few teams before settling in here. But if you just isolate his development, you can see he is still on the way up.

You can also isolate GA development and see his skill going up. He improved mostly on the offensive side. While GA has developed his offense over the last years, I actually think he has farther to go to become a franchise player because he has more things to work on (becoming the team player, mental leader, give the team what it needs on any given night, and defense that Caron already has). This, is going to be tougher for GA to add then for CB to add a becoming better one-on-one game. We will have to see what GA has added while he has been out.

As of today, CB is the better all around franchise player. While both have something to add to their games to truly be franchise players, I think one more year will show which was most up for the challenge(s).

I give the nod to CB. Plus I like his contract better.

The quality problem will be what if they both get there. Then we have to hope that one basketball court is big enough for the 2 of them.

[WizarDynasty]

Caron is true wizard. Gilbert Arenas is our hero and is the best thing that has ever happened to this franchise. It goes GA, then Caron, then Jamison, Haywood--and tie between young, blatche, and AD.

[hands11]

Caron is true wizard. Gilbert Arenas is our hero and is the best thing that has ever happened to this franchise. It goes GA, then Caron, then Jamison, Haywood--and tie between young, blatche, and AD.

That's interesting that you would say CB is a true Wizard but not say that about Gil. I hadn't thought about it like that but yeah. Now GA is coming due for a contract so maybe it's not a fair comparison. I wonder how CB would be acting if he was coming due. I just can't see CB talking about being anywhere else but here. I think he is fully invested in what we are doing here.

I guess we all get to pick our heroes and I pick CB. Everyone else on the team falls a distant 2nd or worse.

[BruceO]

Caron can be a franchise player. I don't understand why conversations that involve caron automatically go to people talking about Gil. The reason I think caron can be is cause I rate him at the vince, Pierce, T-mac, Carmelo level. And those guys have been franchise players. Caron is putting up points at a very respectable 56 % true shooting percentage. With the right pieces I think any all star player really is a franchise player and caron is a franchise player in my book. Lets not turn this into a conversation about Gil and aggrsively turning away people who come here who obviously appreciate our players and mean no harm