Is this a fair write-up of Calderon?

[dagger]

First off, with respect to the OP's assessment, Jose's full year average stats do not fully reflect per 40-minute performance because for the first six weeks of the season he wasn't starting. His raw per game points and assists would be a bit higher had he been starting from the beginning.

Jose's game is analytical, as opposed to Ford's game which is what I call catalytical - he makes things happen, for better or worse. If you are like a lot of people who worships catalytical talent, you won't like Jose. If you like the analytical point guard, who is patient and looks for what the defence gives him rather than trying to prod the defence to make wrong choices, then Jose is your man. Each style has its merits.

A final word for Seattle fans: You don't have the money to get Jose. I don't see Seattle having more than enough cap space than a mid-level exception once your high draft pick is accounted for. A salary of that magnitude won't get you a sniff of Jose, who is a restricted free agent.

[Alfred]

Not great on the pick and roll? Jose Calderon is possibly one of the best pick and roll PGs in the NBA, that's what he does on almost every posession.

He can't consistently cross his guy over and drive and kick, he can't get to the free throw line in the half court set, he can't post up his defender to get a 12 foot turn around, and he can't pull up off hard dribble for an 18-footer.

He does this all of the time. In fact, he probably does this 2-3 times a game, so I don't know where you got this from.

Teams might not need this in their pg, but remember that Calderon's low TO numbers come from this reluctance to drive and inability to make something out of nothing, not because he magically coasts through crowded lanes without ever losing the ball. In short, he cannot create something out of nothing--he capitalizes on mistakes and seizes any lane you give him, but if you don't give him anything, he can't be too effective.

Calderon "can't create something out of nothing" is a poor turn of phrase. It makes it seem like he doesn't do a good job of creating, and really only capitalizes on mistakes the defense makes. While he does do a good job of that, he is excellent at creating via the pick and roll. If he can pick and roll into the lane, he can find shooters all over the court. If they aren't open, he will try the same thing again.

Often you will see the pick and roll done twice in a single shot clock, because nobody is open enough to shoot the ball. He will reset and come up with a score, either by shooting the ball himself, or finding an open shooter.

While I have some issues with Jose Calderon, I seriously think that you are undervaluing him. You start off with a few positive points, and the rest of your diatribe is completely negative. For example, I found this totally incorrect:

I don't want to damper excitement about him, I just thought that Calderon's stats don't communicate his impact that well. He's good, he will help any team, but everything he does effectively shows up in those stats. Unlike Chauncey with his D, his willingness to take tough shots, and his strong veteran presence, there's nothing else to his game that what you see in the stats.

How about the calming effect that he has on the offense as a whole? Everyone knows exactly what type of pace we are running, people know they are going to get "theirs" when he handles the ball and he generally has a poise and awareness of when to take over a game, when to distribute, when to drive and when to defer to Bosh or the hot hand. When on offense, he is IN CONTROL. He is almost always totally in control of an offensive set.

It seems like you are responding to someone who is saying nothing but good things about him, maybe trying to temper their optimism with a bit of "reality". The problem is is that you are off base on a lot of your assumptions, probably because you haven't watched enough Raptors games. Pretty poor job overall IMO.

[whoknows]

Wow...you write all this crap after watching 5 games...?!?

Yes you are off, way off and further more, JC is not available.
Not with TJ incertitude if/when returning.

[Reignman]

-= original quote snipped =-



Somehow I think Seattle already has that or at least he will be!

Damn, I completely missed the fact this guy is a Supersonics fan. Actually a seasoned Durant would be the perfect compliment to Jose.

[johnn_19]

All that you need to know about Calderon is that he is a WINNER, a WORLD CHAMPION as the starting PG for Spain. For Toronto he is 29 games into directing the offense as the STARTING PG for the first time in the NBA in his 3rd year. His upside is off the charts as to what he will be, given 2/3 years more experience.

Compare what Jose is doing to what Nash did in his 1st 3 years.

By the way there is no way he would go to Seattle, and play for a loser.

[HotelVitale]

Thanks for the responses. You guys have got to be one of the most active and intelligent boards out there.

In the write-up I guess I was trying to downplay Calderon, since people were talking about him as potentially better than Nash because of his numbers, and I wanted to point out that while his numbers were unbelievable, there were reasons why Nash and Wade average 3+ to's while Jose doesn't. I didn't say enough about his shooting--I was really impressed by his 20-30 foot shot in those games--and I didn't mention enough about how good a finisher he is (if he gets to the paint, he's notably good at twisting his body and using it to seal off defenders). It still seems to me that he doesn't know what to do when the shot clock's winding down, and that he doesn't even try to get shots or get to the line when it's finishing time. Maybe I'm remembering his game against the Pistons more clearly than some of the others, but they really gave him a hard time by playing good old-fashioned solid defense. (Was that just a bad game for him?)

Also I wasn't saying Watson was as good as Jose. By any means. Everyone in Seattle knows how mediocre Watson is most of the time--most fans are ready to give him away for a song--so I was trying to underscore that you shouldn't worship assists numbers without understanding how they come about. And you shouldn't mortgage your team because there's some new name who's been tearing up the league statistically.

I think Jose's is very good, and you guys should be laughing yourself to sleep every night for having gotten him as a FA, and for having him and TJ, whom I also think is very good. But it's useful for me to try to really see what he is and what he can/can't do instead of getting drunk on his stat line and hailing him as the next Steve Nash. You guys probably see him enough not to do that, but it's easy to fall into that trap for outsiders who never get to see someone play and only have the boxscore as a guide.

One last thing--please please please never cite Andre Snellings again. It's a running joke amongst me and my friends how insipid his column is. He's Yahoo's fourth-string fantasy writer and clearly does not watch much basketball. The only explanation we can come up for his having a job there is that his dad or uncle or whoever used to own a sporting goods store in Yahoo, Missouri, so Yahoo.com had to guarantee his family financial security in order to acquire the domain name "yahoo.sports.com."
He just looks at stats and sees who has been doing well in the last few months, and then tells you to get them. "Gee, I would get on board the Caron Butler train. See if you can trade Shaq for him." When he tells you "Calderon is incredible," he means Calderon is incredible at fantasy, and when he tells you "Calderon is one of the best point guards in the game" he means that Calderon has been one of the best point guards in fantasy. Nothing against the guy, he just doesn't even attempt to analyze or assess anything. From what I can tell, at least 70% of the writers on this Raptors board are more insightful than him.

[Hendrix]

I agree with what Supersub wrote. If I can add something

Calderon is very good at the pick and roll. He can shoot if you give him that, drive if you give him that and finish at the rim with high %'s, and is very good at passing the ball if it's there. I think a lot of why Calderon doesn't hit the roller often is more that Bosh, and Bargnani are not very good in the pick and roll. Bosh get's most of his points from the high post, and Bargnani from jumpshots. Like supersub a lot of our offense uses the P+R to initiate but the ball goes to an open shot, or down to Bosh. That's just the way our offense seems to work. Not because of any inabiliy in Jose to play the pick and roll.

Jose hasn't gotten into the lane much this year like Nash for whatever reason. But he is more then capible of it if he needs to like in the Boston game, or in earlier year in his career.

[dagger]

All that you need to know about Calderon is that he is a WINNER, a WORLD CHAMPION as the starting PG for Spain. For Toronto he is 29 games into directing the offense as the STARTING PG for the first time in the NBA in his 3rd year. His upside is off the charts as to what he will be, given 2/3 years more experience.

Compare what Jose is doing to what Nash did in his 1st 3 years.

By the way there is no way he would go to Seattle, and play for a loser.

You can also add that he loves the game, appears to be well-liked by his teammates, is coachable, and accepts whatever role you give him, even if it means coming off the bench. He won't make trouble off the court either.

He is the epitome of low maintenance.

However, the issue with him going to Seattle is not about winning or losing. It's about money. Seattle isn't in the ball game this summer. And Seattle can't even sell Jose on the city when the team is heading to OKC in the next few years. Seattle's a nice cosmopolitan place, but I dare say OKC is not necessarily a European player's cup of tea.

[TheMainEvent]

I'm not replying to defend Calderon - although it might turn out that way -... but my intention is to just give my take on your arguments.

But you also have to keep in mind several things:
--first, he plays almost the WHOLE game now. His forty minutes stats are equal to his game stats. Sonic great Earl Watson dishes a comparable amount of assists per 40, as does Jamaal Tinsley.

I dont think it's fair to compare someone's potential 40 min stats as to the real thing. Afterall, there is a reason why guys like Watson and Tinsley dont play 40 min a game. Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, and Calderon all have relatively the same assist stats per 48 minutes... does that mean Tinley and Watson are relatively equal to Paul and Kidd as well? It'd be unfair to negate Calderon's assist numbers by saying that Tinsley and Watson can do almost the same per 48 - when Kidd and Paul are almost the same as them as well. I dont think you'd say Tinsley is as good as Paul - so why would you say it with Calderon?

--second, his assists come in bunches, with gaps in between. He seems to have an on/off switch like most scorers, which is normal, but not necessarily something you want in your point guard.

His assists don't have an on/off switch. Yes, they do often come in bunches, but I think that has less to do with his ability as it does with the ability of the players he has on the court. I think his style of play is very consistent while he's out there... almost always playing safe and still looking to pass first. If that is staying the same, how exactly is it his fault that his assists aren't consistent? The reason his assists come in bunches is because of the other players on the court. For example, Calderon would probably get more assists when playing with Delfino and Bosh than Moon and Humphries... but that shouldn't be a negative quality of Calderon's game.

He's not a great pick and roll guy; he has Bosh to pick and roll with, but you rarely see a Nash-Stoudemire easy bucket out of those two.

That is something I'd completely disagree with. First off, I think Calderon is one of the best pick and roll PGs in the league, behind Nash and Deron Williams. He's great at getting to the rim off of pick and rolls, and he does a good job feeding Bosh if he's open.

There are two reasons Calderon-Bosh aren't like a Nash-Stoudemire type pick and roll game. One, Nash is without-a-doubt the best passer in the league. You're argument here is that Calderon isn't good at the pick and roll because he's not as good a passer as Nash - a two time MVP winner. But Chris Paul isn't as good at the pick and roll as Nash, neither are Kidd and D-Will... but that doesn't mean they aren't good. It just means Nash is better. Secondly... Bosh is not Stoudemire. Bosh is not as explosive, hes not as good a dunker, and overall, his inside game is not as strong as Stoudemire's. If Calderon was playing with Stoudemire, I think Calderon's assist numbers would increase by 3 or 4 a game. Stoudemire and Dwight Howard are two players in the league where if they get the ball in the paint, they'll 9 times out of 10 - dunk it. Bosh has a better outside shot than Amare, but a dunk is definitely more likely to go in than an outside shot.

--4th, he's not too tall and doesn't move his feet that quickly. He's not tiny, but he plays defense smaller than his size. He's definitely not a defensive asset, but i haven't seen enough of him to say that he's a liability. He doesn't produce many turnovers or pressure the ball very well, and he couldn't stay in front of Chauncey or Rajon Rondo, to use two recent examples I saw. He doesn't like to foul, which can be good, but also doesn't do much on help defense. In short, doesn't give much on defense and will not deter good offensive point guards but probably isn't one of the 5 worst defenders out of starting pgs in the league. (After thought: he doesn't play defense as intelligently as he does offense, unlike Steve Nash, who has trouble staying in front of quicker guys but is frequently in good position to force a bad shot or turnover on help defense, and make smart fouls when they're called for.)

I do agree with that. His defense is definitely the weakest part of his game... and I'd actually go farther than you and say that he is a liability. He doesn't move his feet very well... he often leaves his guy wide open to try and help out on another defender - which almost always ends up hurting the Raps... he doesn't reach in or poke at the ball (which is good because he doesn't get fouls) - but is bad because he doesn't cause turnovers or irritate the guy on offense.

He's good, he will help any team, but everything he does effectively shows up in those stats. Unlike Chauncey with his D, his willingness to take tough shots, and his strong veteran presence, there's nothing else to his game that what you see in the stats. He's very solid, he's certainly a 'true' point guard, and he's unbelievable for fantasy basketball, but I don't think he's the next great point guard in the NBA."

I would think that Calderon not taking tough shots is a pretty good thing. It is a positive for Billups... but not everyone can shoot as well as Billups or Nash. Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Jason Kidd don't shoot a whole lot of tough shots as well.

Also, Billups has been in the league much longer than Calderon, and has been the starting PG many years now. This is the first time Calderon has had the starting position on a consistent basis - so I dont think it's fair to say that his lack of a veteran presence is a negative. It's not like Billups was a veteran presence from the get-go... he took years and years just to become a rotation player.


Overall, I think the biggest problem in your arguments is that you keep comparing Calderon's game to the BEST PG in each category. You try to negate Calderon by saying he's not as good a passer as Nash... by saying that he's not as good a shooter as Billups or Nash... and that he's not as good a veteran as Billups. But it'd be safe to say that Chris Paul isn't as good as Nash or Billups in any of those categories as well. Same with Deron Williams, Jason Kidd, and Baron Davis. But they're all great PGs, and I think Calderon is as well.

Paul and Williams have been the starting PG for their teams since they arrived in the NBA... and Nash, Kidd, and Billups all have A LOT of experience under their belts. Give Calderon another year or so as the starter, and I think he'd be just as good as any of them. He almost is already.

[Schad]

"We should be careful not to overrate Calderon. I don't know if you guys have seen him play, but they've shown about 4-5 of his games in the last month here, and while he is good and uncannily smart with the ball, his stats don't give the best indication of his game. He plays very very safe--thus his low to's--never drives into traffic and never forces passes. And he's extremely precise with his passes, which he can make on the run and from large distances. He gets assists by finding open guys that many other point guards in the league couldn't, and he can make the game exciting for his teammates and for fans. He's also a very efficient shooter, takes what the defense gives him (although is often reluctant, looking to pass more than shoot).

I wouldn't call him a reluctant shooter, though he certainly is not a gunner. Calderon has become better as the season wears on at looking for his midrange shots early in the clock...though he will still look to pass first, he's taking over 10 shots per game as a starter, and a higher percentage of those are from beyond the arc. He doesn't set out to generate his own offense the majority of the time, but he will take any open shot with which he is presented...and will typically knock it down.

But you also have to keep in mind several things:
--first, he plays almost the WHOLE game now. His forty minutes stats are equal to his game stats. Sonic great Earl Watson dishes a comparable amount of assists per 40, as does Jamaal Tinsley.

His assist/40 numbers are 20% better than Watson, and 10% better than Tinsley. Not too far off, but there is definitely a significant gap.

--second, his assists come in bunches, with gaps in between. He seems to have an on/off switch like most scorers, which is normal, but not necessarily something you want in your point guard.

His ability to generate assists is dependent on the rest of the team's ability to make the shots with which they are presented. He has recorded double-digit assists in more than half the games which he has started...I'd say that he is a model of consistency in that regard.

--third, and more importantly, if the shot clock is under 10, Calderon is not good. I would bet that he gets most of his assists within the first 10-2 seconds of the clock, either in transition or at the very start of the half-court set, before the defense has totally clamped down and still lets back door cuts, etc go through. If the defense is sound, Calderon just dribbles around the perimeter--again because he doesn't like to turn the ball over--until he passes to someone who takes a contested 18 footer with 2 seconds left on the clock. He can drive, but in keeping with his very careful, deliberative game, he only does so when there's a clear lane caused by bad defensive rotation (or else in transition). He's not a great pick and roll guy; he has Bosh to pick and roll with, but you rarely see a Nash-Stoudemire easy bucket out of those two. . He can't consistently cross his guy over and drive and kick, he can't get to the free throw line in the half court set, he can't post up his defender to get a 12 foot turn around, and he can't pull up off hard dribble for an 18-footer. Teams might not need this in their pg, but remember that Calderon's low TO numbers come from this reluctance to drive and inability to make something out of nothing, not because he magically coasts through crowded lanes without ever losing the ball. In short, he cannot create something out of nothing--he capitalizes on mistakes and seizes any lane you give him, but if you don't give him anything, he can't be too effective.

That is patently false, IMO; as mentioned before, his midrange pull-up game is probably his strongest suit after his passing. As for his ability to score late in the clock, 46% of his field goals have come with fewer than 8 seconds remaining on the clock, and his eFG% in those situations is around .540 (which is excellent). As for the pick-and-roll, probably 80% of our offense comes through that route...does it matter than Bosh's buckets off the P&R don't resemble Amare's in terms of sheer aesthetic joy?

--4th, he's not too tall and doesn't move his feet that quickly. He's not tiny, but he plays defense smaller than his size. He's definitely not a defensive asset, but i haven't seen enough of him to say that he's a liability. He doesn't produce many turnovers or pressure the ball very well, and he couldn't stay in front of Chauncey or Rajon Rondo, to use two recent examples I saw. He doesn't like to foul, which can be good, but also doesn't do much on help defense. In short, doesn't give much on defense and will not deter good offensive point guards but probably isn't one of the 5 worst defenders out of starting pgs in the league. (After thought: he doesn't play defense as intelligently as he does offense, unlike Steve Nash, who has trouble staying in front of quicker guys but is frequently in good position to force a bad shot or turnover on help defense, and make smart fouls when they're called for.)

I'll agree that he is a poor defender, but he's 6'3"; that's pretty tall for a PG. As for his ability to generate steals, he's 25th among guards, picking up more per 40 than Deron Williams, Brandon Roy, Andre Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Watson...not great, definitely average steals numbers for a point guard.

I don't want to damper excitement about him, I just thought that Calderon's stats don't communicate his impact that well. He's good, he will help any team, but everything he does effectively shows up in those stats. Unlike Chauncey with his D, his willingness to take tough shots, and his strong veteran presence, there's nothing else to his game that what you see in the stats. He's very solid, he's certainly a 'true' point guard, and he's unbelievable for fantasy basketball, but I don't think he's the next great point guard in the NBA."

Things that don't show up in his basic stats:

-The team shoots 4% better in terms of eFG when he is on the court, with 5% more assists.

-With Calderon on the floor, Toronto outscores its opponents by 20.7 points/100 possessions in 'clutch' situations...where he shoots an eFG% of .750 (down from .875 last year, which is unheard of), an incredible percentage. His shots taken/made also jump dramatically late in games.

-Next to Bosh, he is probably the leader in the locker room...the guy is one of the better teammates in the league.

[Leiro]

And his defense it

[ranger001]

One last thing--please please please never cite Andre Snellings again. It's a running joke amongst me and my friends how insipid his column is. He's Yahoo's fourth-string fantasy writer and clearly does not watch much basketball. The only explanation we can come up for his having a job there is that his dad or uncle or whoever used to own a sporting goods store in Yahoo, Missouri, so Yahoo.com had to guarantee his family financial security in order to acquire the domain name "yahoo.sports.com."

Snelling might have engaged in some hyperbole but he's trying to see where Calderon will be in a few years and he likes it. Instead of dismissing Snelling you should take a critical look at your own posts and figure out if in fact you were wrong like several posters have pointed out yet you choose to believe yourself and look at others who agree as confirmation of your own opinion.

[WD-40]

You can also add that he loves the game, appears to be well-liked by his teammates, is coachable, and accepts whatever role you give him, even if it means coming off the bench. He won't make trouble off the court either.

He is the epitome of low maintenance.

However, the issue with him going to Seattle is not about winning or losing. It's about money. Seattle isn't in the ball game this summer. And Seattle can't even sell Jose on the city when the team is heading to OKC in the next few years. Seattle's a nice cosmopolitan place, but I dare say OKC is not necessarily a European player's cup of tea.

The bolded part is quite possible, but not certain as far as I know. Seattle is a nice city. And to the poster who said Jose would not go to Seattle due to losing, I think with Durant, Jose, high draft pick, etc, they would not be losing for long. Although, it's irrelevant cuz the Sonics cant afford him.

I think the primary point with Jose is he's still getting better. As a Rap fan, watching his progress has been a joy. When TJ comes back to play, Jose will be the first to welcome him.

[JN]

But you also have to keep in mind several things:
--first, he plays almost the WHOLE game now. His forty minutes stats are equal to his game stats. Sonic great Earl Watson dishes a comparable amount of assists per 40, as does Jamaal Tinsley.

Yes if a difference of 17% is meaningless, then yes he has the same number of assists as Watson

[The_Hater]

Hello Raps board! I just wrote a profile of Calderon for the Sonics' board that ended up much longer than I had anticipated, and i was wondering if you guys could tell me if you think it's accurate. ."

You make some decent points but overall your assessment has such an negative slant/tone to it that I'm not sure how anyone can argue that it's a 'fair assessment'.

Most Raptor fans realize that he's not on the level of guys like Chris Paul, Steve Nash or Deron Williams but he's still a very good NBA starting PG.

[industry_killer]

never drives into traffic is a misnomer as jose generally wont just try and force a play like tj would by driving and looking for a foul. calderone will drive when he sees an opening and more often than not capitilize on i said opening.

[teamLeiweke]

I agree with the beginning, I didnt agree with the 3rd part... and then the rest of the "article" fell off for me.

-he is very safe
-he does only take what the offence gives him
-he CAN score with the clock running down though, if anything, he always uses all of the 24 seconds to get himself or anyone els ethe highest % shot and rarely shoots int he first 2-10 seconds as you claimed.
- he does not go in the paint and into traffic to make crazy passes, and I question if he wasnt on Toronto, surrounded with the likes of Kapono, Delfino, Parker, who all shoot at an abysmal %, even Bosh shoots his jump shots with a high %, if his assists would be so high (but this isnt his fault, and maybe Im wrong.)
- I dont think he is great defensively either, and I also dont think he is the next GREAT pg in the nba either.. he isnt a franchise player, but is a SOLID PG in a good system.

HAVING SAID ALL THIS, THIS IS CALDERONS FIRST YEAR AS A STARTING POINT GUARD... who is to say he is not going to get much better, and learn when to make riskier drives to the basket and create for himself... Nash didnt get selfish with his jump shot until MUCH later in his career either.

[daswunderboy]

I agree with pretty much everything said in the original, but as has been mentioned, you didn't touch enough on his amazing shooting, and I his horrific defense should be mentioned more. I read a defense of his D as him having to play cautious to stay on the floor, which is valid if he wasn't so awful while TJ was healthy.

<------- that ain't defense, no matter how much you like the guy. It just isn't.

[Double Y]

As you've seen, your assessment that he's not good under 10 seconds, he's not great at pick & roll, his inability to shoot a pull-up jumper, and his per 40 stats will be met with a lot of resistence.

Most of Jose's deficiencies stem from his lack of "athleticism." Jose's game stems more from cerebral rather than physical. He doesn't drive into the paint because he's not as fast nor as big nor as explosive as many of the other players in the NBA. But he's got incredible basketball IQ, court vision, and the ability exploit any defensive breakdowns. Go watch the final shot he took against Boston as a microcosm of his play. I've seen him do it enough times to think it's more than just a lucky shot. Basically, Jose prefers to drive around defenders for an open layup rather than trying to weave through traffic because he just doesn't have the athletic prowess to do that. The same goes for why he doesn't "force his shots," do a lot of "pull-up jumpers" or get "easy pick-and-rolls." He does all of those things, but just at much more controlled tempo, because, once again, he's got the mental aspects of it down, but lack the athleticism to do it recklessly.

The same applies to his defence. He can think his way into good defensive positioning, and do all the little fundamental stuff (once again, check the Boston game when he had a no-look steal just by keeping his hands up), but more athletic guards will still blow past him. I think it's more a situation where a he understands his strengths and weaknesses, and he plays within them, rather than try to play above them. I think a more valid comparison is that Calderon's a poor-man's Stockton than Nash, who plays at a breakneck speed.

Finally, I don't think the 40 minute stats do justice to him. Like Nash, who on any given night can go for 30 points, Calderon prefers to defer to a team concept. He can likely average 20 points if he chooses, but he understands there are better options. He usually takes what defences gives him, then play a different style once they open up. If this means he takes shots early, then he'll shoot early, but if it means passing it off first, he'll do that as well. That's why his stats fluctuate from game to game.

[raps9]

Calderon certainly has his weaknesses

however, I think it is wrong to hint that he is a overrated because his strong numbers are a result of his safe and efficient style of play

Jose plays safe and smart for a reason. He totally understands the role of his position and makes everyone around him better.

He has a great shot and can be counted on to score, even though he doesnt create his own offense like TJ, Paul, Nash etc.

I beleive the best basketball teams need to rely on the SG to create their own offense in late clock situations, not the pg.