Who is the better Run and Gun team? GS or PHX?

[Abyss Impact]

Baron - Nash
Ellis - Barbosa
Jackson - Marion
Harrington - Diaw
Biedrins - Stoudemire
Nelson - D'Antoni
GS lives off the fast breaks and three pointers. Phx lives off the pick and rolls.

Whose better at what they do?

[The_Believer]

PHX is more organized and the more "traditional" run and gun team, but GS is a highly unorthodox style, and as a result are a matchup headache for all teams.

[CupcakeNoFillin]

Warriors are the better run and gun team, but Phoenix wins more games because they can slow it down against other teams since they have Stoudemire/Marion.

But when the Suns play the Warriors, they always want to prove that they're the better run and gun team by never slowing down against us and it just backfires on them.

Usually Steve Nash can't guard Baron Davis, so they put Raja Bell on Baron. So that means that Steve Nash has to play defense on another big guard like Kelenna Azubuike, Matt Barnes, Mickael Pietrus who will all post him up down low. Nellie knows that, so he makes his guards post up Nash. When Nash is vulnerable like that, he needs a teammate to step up and help double team to help him on defense, that leads to the Warriors passing the ball out to the open man. And Monta Ellis is too quick for Steve Nash, Ellis scored 15 straight points on Nash in the 4th quarter of the last game the Warriors played against the Suns.

And for Nash playing on offense, the pace is so QUICK that Stoudemire has trouble finding a good spot on the floor to catch a pass. Both teams are always in transition and Warriors defenders are all over the passing lanes that the Suns big men have a hard time getting into the right spot in the paint to catch a pass or alley-oop.

I can't find any highlights of the recent Warriors/Suns game, but here's highlights from a game last season between them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1eOK1UT6Mk

[Doctor MJ]

Who's better at what they do? The Suns. That's why they have easily the better record this year like they do every year.

And putting the Suns' offense in perspective: The lead the league in offensive efficiency AGAIN this year. They've done so each year since they came together except when Amare was gone where they fell to 2nd, but only because their rebounding disappeared, they still were easily the best team in the league at making shots. At this point we're talking about one of the great offensive dynasties in history vs another nice offense.

[L-Burna89]

Denver. Highest paced team in the league by a good margin.....and they also have the best defense of any of the high paced teams in the league. Good defense, particularly blocked shots and steals(Nuggets lead the league in both those areas too) lead to great fastbreak opportunities. Phoenix and Golden State like to chuck up a lot of threes more than anything......where as Denver focuses almost entirely on getting into the paint for easy layups/dunks and/or getting to the line. I think they're much more of a 'true' run and gun team.

Denver is actually quite a weird team, in that not only do they play extremely fast(the fastest in the league), but they also have a pretty good defense.

Here is the pace rank for the top 6 defensive teams in the league:

1. Boston - 24th
2. Houston - 17th
3. New Orleans - 26th
4. Detroit - 30th
5. San Antonio - 28th
6. Denver - 1st

And now here are the defensive rankings for the 6 fasted paced teams in the league:

1. Denver - 6th
2. Indiana - 13th
3. Golden State - 24th
4. L.A. Lakers - 8th
5. Memphis - 24th
6. Phoenix - 20th

Not very common that a run and gun team also has a good defense....or that a good defensive team will play extremely fast. And I think that is a testament to just how good of a defensive team Denver(and also the Lakers) is. It's hard to play good defense when you're playing at such a fast pace......but people(mostly dumbass media analysts) still refuse to give the Nuggets any credit for their defense.



Sorry for the slight thread hijack, although it still was pretty much on topic. I assumed the you were assuming that the Suns and Warriors were clearly the two best fastbreaking teams in the league, which is why you narrowed it into such a specific question between the two.....when that really isn't the case at all.

[CupcakeNoFillin]

Who's better at what they do? The Suns. That's why they have easily the better record this year like they do every year.

And putting the Suns' offense in perspective: The lead the league in offensive efficiency AGAIN this year. They've done so each year since they came together except when Amare was gone where they fell to 2nd, but only because their rebounding disappeared, they still were easily the best team in the league at making shots. At this point we're talking about one of the great offensive dynasties in history vs another nice offense.

That's why I said they win more games than the Warriors, because they can slow the pace down and use Amare Stoudemire effectively. Give the Warriors any type of big man like Stoudemire, Gasol, Garnett, Bosh, etc and I can guarantee we'd be better than the Suns.

EDIT: Wait nevermind, I didn't see the originall question. Yeah the Suns are better at what they do. Warriors still need a big man to fuel the fastbreaks and get boards though.

[CupcakeNoFillin]

Phoenix and Golden State like to chuck up a lot of threes more than anything......where as Denver focuses almost entirely on getting into the paint for easy layups/dunks and/or getting to the line. I think they're much more of a 'true' run and gun team.

That's why the Warriors are 2nd in the league in points scored in the paint, behind the holy Boston Celtics.

I do believe that the Nuggets have good defense, no need to convince me on that. I hate it when people think that just because a team can score, they don't play defense. Maybe if the Warriors had an all-star center like Camby or Stoudemire we'd be just as good on defense in the paint.

[Ballings7]

Good defense, particularly blocked shots and steals(Nuggets lead the league in both those areas too) lead to great fastbreak opportunities.

Which is what they rely on and are consistent at, but are also lacking discpline in gambling for them, from that reliance. Because when you don't get the steal or block, it puts you out of position, and consequently the team is at a disadvantage, or a hole is created. It's not like that happens a lot less than actually getting the deflection, too.

Denver is inconsistent in the more legitimate style of defense. Which doesn't involve much going for and getting blocks and steals, but of course involving rotations, altering shots, staying with your man.

opp. points in the paint: 39.6 25th

opp. 3PM/%: 7.9/38% 30th

opp. offensive rebs: 12.5 27th

Also something personnel-wise... on the perimeter. AI/Carter/Smith/Atkins/Diawara is not a decent defensive back-court. Specifically, three small guards, AI/Carter is a very small starting back-court, and Diawara plays erratic minutes and doesn't have that much NBA experience, establishment yet. That does not fare well for the playoffs and the big men.

Combined with the undisciplined gambling.

edit: With a team ranking high in shotblocking, that can indicate that the team allows significant driving to the basket area. And with the Nuggets lacking perimeter defense, that is there with them. In addition, a specific factor with going for steals, when a steal is unsuccessfully attempted, as a regular consequence there will be something created in the paint. There being more positive results for the offense, than the defense.

Excelling in getting steals and blocks doesn't always mean a team is good defensively. Specifically meaning if the traditional, solid way of playing defense is not consistently effective. That form being a general requirement, for any high-level team.

edit2: Also, George Karl was quoted last night in saying "we're schizophrenic defensively". Now, obviously that doesn't mean the creation of turnovers, because that's always been a constant for Denver. It's relating to the more typical form of playing defense.

Overall, Denver's not a solid defensive team.

where as Denver focuses almost entirely on getting into the paint for easy layups/dunks and/or getting to the line.

Because Denver's (still) not a respectable 3PT shooting team at 33 percent (28th), and also are weak there personnel-wise. So naturally play more to the strengths.

[-SDU-]

warriors may be a better RUN AND GUN team, but the suns are a better offensive team

we dont have to run to be effective, our half court offense, including the nash amare pick and roll is really more effective than our fast break offense

[St.Nick]

I'm a Warriors fan and I think the Suns have a better offense. Their personnel is simply superior and they are more consistent in their execution. GS seems to be unstoppable at times and then unable to put the ball in the hoop at other times.

[miller31time]

Interesting question.

The Suns have the most efficient offense in the NBA, but are ranked 4th in pace.

The Warriors have the 5th most efficient offense, but are one better in the pace department at 3rd.

I'd give the Suns a small advantage.

[Hendrix]

Suns if you mean who is more efficent in their offensive attack.

Suns have the most efficient offense in the league, Golden state is 5th. They are 3rd, and 4th in pace in the league.
http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/

Pheonix has the most efficient PG in Nash in the league
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... onType%3d2

The 3rd most efficent Center. Dampier, and Bynum barely ahead of him don't get nearly as many points.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... onType%3d2

Grant hill is the 3rd most efficient SF
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... onType%3d2

And Marion is 9th in efficiency in PF's with only 3 other 20ppg guys ahead of him
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinge ... onType%3d2

Pretty efficient starting line up. Only position that GSW have the edge in efficeny in the starting line up is SG.

[crzy]

It's the Suns, there is no question about it. They are more efficient offensively, and are more versatile with Amare Stoudamire.

[lmaonade]

if gsw starts missing 3s they die. classic get intot he paint to get points is more reliable. phx > gsw

[rsavaj]

Golden State is a better "running team" right now, IMO, because they play like the Suns did in 04-05...a bunch of mad men just going out there and having fun playing basketball. System? Who needs a freaking system .

The Suns are a better offensive team for sure though...

[The_Believer]

Little-known fact- GS is actually among the leaders in points in the paint, contrary to the opinion of us being a bunch of 3pt jackers.

[crzy]

Little-known fact- GS is actually among the leaders in points in the paint, contrary to the opinion of us being a bunch of 3pt jackers.

Sorry. But that is a misleading statistic, since most of our "points in the paint" are off fast-break points. We have the best transition offense in the league, but our half-court offense is fairly mediocre.

[CupcakeNoFillin]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sorry. But that is a misleading statistic, since most of our "points in the paint" are off fast-break points. We have the best transition offense in the league, but our half-court offense is fairly mediocre.

We're so good at fastbreaks that we lead the league in points in the paint. Just look at it that way. RUN AND GUN.

[CupcakeNoFillin]

if gsw starts missing 3s they die. classic get intot he paint to get points is more reliable. phx > gsw

See it's ignorant posters like this that amaze me. I didn't know that there's still people out there who think that Golden State needs to play a PERFECT game just to win a game.

Ever since the date of Stephen Jackson's return from suspension, the Warriors have tied with the Celtics for MOST WINS IN THE LEAGUE. So if the season started when Stephen Jackson came back, we'd be at the top of the West. The only reason we're at the 7th seed right now is because of the games that we lost WITHOUT Jackson, which is only 6 games. That just shows how close teams are in the West.

It's not like Golden State can't win games. You say if we miss 3s, we die? So is Stephen Jackson some type of sharpshooting 60% three point shooter that we're winning a good amount of games with him back on the team?

[CupcakeNoFillin]

http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php? ... c&start=48